Innate Wisdom Podcast

What It's About:

Join Loren Sofia, Functional Fertility Coach and founder of Innate Fertility, Chloe and Keshia, from the Road to Wisdom podcast as they discuss their fertility and birthing journeys..

In this episode, you’ll learn about:

• How Chloe & Keshia birthed The Road to Wisdom podcast
• How they’re both preparing to each go from 4 kids to baby number 5
• How Chloe & Keshia are each preparing for their own births
• Chloe’s fertility journey and experience with the hormonal birth control pill
• Keshia’s fertility journey and experience with trying to conceive
• Chloe’s birth experiences, from good midwives to bad midwives
• Keshia’s birth experiences, from giving birth in a conventional hospital setting to freebirthing
• How to choose the right birth setting for yourself
• How to create trust in yourself regardless of where you birth
• The importance of re-evaluating the relationships in your life during pregnancy and how
• And so much more!

Episode Links:

• Chloe’s IG: @chloepacey
• Keshia IG: @Keshia_tognazzini 
• The Road to Wisdom Podcast IG: @theroadtowisdom.podcast
• The Road to Wisdom Podcast available on all podcast platforms: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-road-to-wisdom-podcast/id1688912558
• The Road to Wisdom Podcast episode featuring Loren: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/full-circle-nourishment-loren-sofias-path-from-conception/id1688912558?i=1000631517751
• The Road to Wisdom Podcast Website: www.theroadtowisdompodcast.com
• The Road to Wisdom Podcast Youtube: @TheRoadToWisdomPodcast/videos

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Loren: Welcome to the Innate Wisdom Podcast. I'm your host, Loren Sofia, healer of my own fertility and health struggles, mother, functional fertility coach to thousands of women, and owner of Innate Fertility. I believe your body is innately wise, and so is your fertility. Sometimes we just need the tools to unlock it in abundance.

I'm honored to guide you through each episode where we'll cover not just fertility, but how to rediscover the innate wisdom of your body. Restore your connection with your physiology, bioenergetics, and metabolism, and get back in touch with Mother Nature and ancestral traditions.

This week, I'm so excited to introduce you to two fabulous Aussie women I'm lucky to be friends with, Chloe and Kashia. We've been connected for a while, and I first had the opportunity to speak with their podcast audience about fertility, preconception, and pregnancy. My jam, of course, busting a lot of myths along the way, as I usually do.

And today, I'm inviting them to join you and me to talk about something truly beautiful, their own birth stories. Both of them were pregnant with their fifth children at the same time, at the time that we recorded this episode. That's right, they have been mothers five times. And, not only do they both have very different fertility journeys, including difficulty getting pregnant despite being super healthy, quote unquote, to taking hormonal birth control because that's just what you did, they also have their own unique birth experiences, a variety of them, from conventional hospital births to good and bad midwives to free birthing.

When I talk to Chloe and Kashia, it's like getting together with some of my closest gal pals, which I hope you feel like that when you listen to my podcast, too. And it's so fun and I hope you enjoy hearing their stories and the many nuggets of wisdom about how to navigate fertility, hard pregnancy decisions, motherhood, and more.

Let's dive into the episode. 

[00:02:15]Loren: All right, everyone. I'm super excited to welcome you to another episode of the Innate Wisdom podcast. Today I'm welcoming Chloe and Kashia from the Road to Wisdom podcast. Welcome you two. 

[00:02:24] Chloe: This is the first time we've ever been on the other side. We're really excited. Thank you for having us.

[00:02:28] Loren: Yeah, thanks so much for being here. I feel honored this is your first time on the other side of the mic, but I've been on your podcast and your podcast is amazing. I'll put a link in the show notes for that too, but just super excited about our conversation today too. 

[00:02:47] Keshia: Yeah. Well, we actually came out of a, um, interview just recently where everyone was pregnant and it's so cool that we get to come into an interview now where we're all pregnant and there's six beings in this conversation.

So no, very excited to be here. 

[00:03:03] Loren: Hey, that's so true. I didn't think about that. But yeah, that's, that's very, very cool. And yeah, we're going to talk about pregnancy as well today. So excited to dive in. But before we do, uh, for those of the audience that aren't familiar with you and your work and what you guys are all about, would you mind sharing a bit more about yourselves?

[00:03:24] Chloe: Yeah, so we've been friends for quite a while and we both have four children each and we're both pregnant with our fifth children and we live in the same area on the east coast of Australia and um, just near a little town called Byron Bay if anybody knows it. And um, We really just started having these big conversations and in a time where the world was kind of acting crazy and um, having these really important conversations that we felt like we just weren't able to have in our wider communities with some of our friends and family members and you know, on online spaces that were really criticized and it just felt like we needed to have conversations to try to understand certain topics that involved parenting, birth, Marriage 

[00:04:10] Keshia: Yeah. And as our kids get older and older, some of these subjects are actually, it's vital to have an opinion or just get a full knowledge on it so you can make an informed decision, especially when it comes to education, birthing, yeah, and I mean, every aspect of life. So it was really, yeah. Um, we, we found that there was definitely a lack there in the podcasting world of women asking these really important, highly controversial at times, controversial at times questions and having it come from a place of curiosity and 

[00:04:48] Chloe: yeah, desire to learn.

[00:04:49] Keshia: Yeah. Yeah. And just. Again, to make, to be able to make informed decisions. So 

[00:04:55] Chloe: yeah, we turned our 30 minute voice messages to each other into a podcast and here we are. 

[00:05:02] Loren: Well, I love that. And I love that you're bringing attention to probably the conversations that a lot of women, you know, have questions about in the back of their mind, but are maybe not finding the support or feeling comfortable, like they can ask the people around them.

about or, or voice their opinions about. Maybe they do have an opinion, but they can't share that and they feel lonely. So I, I really appreciate that because it's, it's like chatting with the podcast episodes that we've had. And you know, the episodes that I've listened to, it's like chatting with your BFFs, just listening to, you know.

Just that kind of conversation. It's very relaxed, but also you're having real conversations, which is so needed. 

[00:05:43] Keshia: Yeah. And I think that's, that's something that we often hear from listeners. It's like, Oh, thank you. Because these aren't topics that are being discussed, but everyone kind of like wants the information without feeling like they're.

in the wrong for getting it. So yeah, it's, it's been, um, it's been a ride. It's going to get even more gnarly as we go on and get a bit more confident. But no, there's, I mean, we've got a lot of really beautiful guests in the works and that we've already recorded with. So those will be coming up soon. 

[00:06:16] Loren: It's very exciting. Cool. Well, that's awesome. And thanks for sharing that. So you guys have been friends for how long? 

[00:06:24] Chloe: It's funny actually, because like, we knew each other through a mutual friend and we didn't think that we were like each other's people. Like we didn't think that we had a whole lot in common and we kind of just like, Oh, but Keshia went through a time in her life and she shaved off her head.

And I was like, Oh, who is this person? I shaved off my head. Technically. Yeah. Shaved off her hair. Um, Thank you for that. Um, and I was like, this person is like, who, this person's woozy. Like she's just shaved off her hair. Like that's a statement. I need to know her. Anyway, it wasn't really until COVID that we kind of really knew that we had things and thoughts and ideas that were in common.

And we kind of just kind of had this little like, Oh, you are totally on my path. 

[00:07:12] Keshia: Yeah, and after a few very deep and gnarly long conversations around campfires, we really forged that and 

[00:07:20] Chloe: yeah. We kind of have seen each other every day since. I know. Yeah, so it's been a few years. Yeah. 

[00:07:27] Loren: Oh, I love that. Yeah, that's great too, because I feel like COVID, uh, separated a lot of people. I certainly lost friends during that time, um, and it was a little bit isolating. So it's so nice to hear how even such a dark time could bring you guys together and create more unity in a lot of ways. That's great. 

[00:07:48] Keshia: Yeah. And I think with our children and their health being at the forefront of it, so it was actually quite easy for us to find mothers like feeling the same things and a bit scared to voice it with all of the noise out.

Yeah. And, um, especially social media, like that was a really toxic place during COVID. So no, it was really nice, um, yeah. 

[00:08:11] Loren: That's cool. That's cool. Well, you both mentioned you have, you're going to have five kids. Did you, did you always know you wanted big families? 

[00:08:22] Chloe: I think I've always loved the idea of it, but I always just thought I'd have two kids like my parents did, and it was kind of just, like, that's the norm.

But um, yeah, my partner actually joked, like, before we even had one, like, he wanted ten kids and I was like, that is ridiculous. It's a hard no. But yeah, like, we've just really effortlessly became a big family, and I guess it, it, it chose us, really. 

[00:08:49] Keshia: Mine, it's been a bit more of an evolution, I came from a big family, so I am one of four, and I was the eldest, and having been in that dynamic, which I love, and I love my siblings, and I love my big family, but, um, especially as a rebellious teen, I was a bit like, oh god, I'm not gonna, you know, add to climate change.

I don't want to, I don't want to be like, and you know, I only really at that stage saw the downfalls of being part of a big family. And, um, then when I met my partner, he was like, Oh, I definitely want to have kids. Cause I was, I was a bit in the ballpark of not. And then, and so I was like, Oh, yeah, I don't want to end this relationship, no.

But, but I was like, look, I had never considered it properly, but I was like, okay, I'm open to that. If we do, I want to be a young mum. And we kind of settled on two when I fell pregnant with our first. And then when I gave birth to her on the way back from, um, the hospital because she was our one and only hospital birth.

I looked at her and I looked at him and I'm like, I've got to do that five times. And I don't know what made that slip out of my mouth because we were kind of set on two and I, in, in the back of my mind, I'm like, obviously we're just going to have two. Um, but yeah, here we are pregnant with my fifth. And it's actually been, so much more of a joy than I could have possibly imagined.

So with all its trials and tribulations, but I've, I have grown in ways that I never would have been able to if we had a stopped it too. So yeah, it's, I highly recommend big family. Yeah. 

[00:10:35] Loren: Oh, I love that. Thanks so much for sharing your stories. Wow. It's amazing how you spoke that into reality. That's pretty wild.

[00:10:43] Keshia: I know. I know. Am I like, I've told that story to my daughter, I think when I was pregnant with, um, my third. And she was only three and a half. And she actually remembered it too. So when this fifth baby was quite a surprise to us, as you know. Um, and yeah, when I shared with the kids that they're going to have another sibling, she was like, you always said you wanted five. And I'm like, Oh God. Okay. Well, here we go. She's sharp. Terrifyingly so. 

[00:11:20] Loren: Well, I love that. You know, I came from a family of three, but everyone else Kind of before me was my dad was one of three my mom was one of two But then my grandparents were each all of them one of 12. Oh One of 11 one of 12 one of 10 Yeah, big big families and I just think about how fun that must have been and you know it's it's always got me thinking in the back of my mind like How many do I want? I don't know. 

[00:11:52] Chloe: Keep going. Just keep going. I always think of the big, the big times, like those, you know, the Christmases and birthdays and just like family dinners. And I fantasize about having, you know, like a 10 or 12 seater table and like this big farmhouse and it's just, it's just chaotic and everyone's partners, there's food everywhere and oh yeah, I just love that.

It's gonna be good. Yeah. It'll be just mine and your family. It'll be like a 30 table seat. A 30 seat table, I should say.

[00:12:19] Loren: I love that. I love that so much. Well, would you mind sharing, because you know, I primarily work a lot in fertility and helping women with their fertility. And I'm just curious if you wouldn't mind sharing what your fertility journeys have been like, you know, with that many children.

Have you experienced any issues conceiving in the past or what, what, what has it been like? Just really curious. 

[00:12:48] Chloe: Well, I know this is, you know, probably not the most usual answer to that question, but, um, I've been really lucky to, I've never had a miscarriage or I've never actually experienced difficulty falling pregnant.

All of my babies have chosen to come exactly when they want to without really any planning or trying. Um, and so, you know, I, in the current climate of fertility in this world, I do feel very privileged and lucky, but I would say that, you know, my life in general leading up to that was quite conducive to being a fertile person.

You know, like, I don't wear makeup and I haven't for over a decade really. I don't have, you know, like that glamorizing and putting, you know, like all those endocrine disruptors and, You know, I'm very conscious of things that I use in my house and, you know, fibers and synthetic things. And, you know, as a child, I was fairly free and wild.

I would never have worn shoes outdoors all the time, like just free roaming kids and I also was never really on the pill and yeah, for previous to meeting my partner, I spent a lot of time, you know, delving into like more spirituality concepts and, um, health and eating properly, you know, what I would have thought was eating properly back then is definitely not what I consider to be eating properly now, but, um, yeah, I've always kind of had my finger on the pulse, whatever that is.

I do think that living, you know, in a certain way or, you know, specifically not really, you know, like my mom was not the type of person to run to the doctors whenever we were sick and, you know, like I was, I did go to the doctor and wanted to be on the pill because everybody else was on the pill and I thought it was just a cool thing to do.

But I also happen to be really negligent and really, um, lazy. And so I never really actually took it. I may have just taken like one every, one pill every month. So yeah, I definitely contribute that, I think, to just, and you know, also Keshia and I both live on the coast and we've always. We've been living here for most of our reproductive years, I would say, so I think living this lifestyle of quite nature based and out in the sun, in the ocean, is also very conducive to being fertile women.

[00:15:16] Keshia: A little less stress, at least. Yeah. Yeah. I had a slightly different experience. But it's been a learning journey for me. I was on the pill for five years and was, was it, is it Anna Maria? Anna Maria? Yeah. I had no bleed for the last year on my, um, on the pill. So I had the discussion with my husband who had mentioned he wanted kids and I was like, well, if we're going to do this, I'm, I'm not doing myself any favors right now.

Like, this is not going to be conducive to that. So I got off the pill around 25 and it took me a while to get my period back. Yeah, and it took us a good nine months of trying to conceive, to fall pregnant the first time. And, um, Again, I very gratefully have not had any miscarriages. So the second time we conceived was quite easy.

It was still a three month calling in. The third time was a surprise. Um, but I think as we've evolved as people and I mean, my first pregnancy journey, I'd never really overly considered health. My dad was very health conscious and I guess that imprinted me and my siblings to some extent, but he never pushed it on us.

And my mom was very balanced when it came to health and conventional food and ways of living. So yeah, I guess a big learning came from my first pregnancy. doing lots of reading and just being absorbed in all of the material and then watching documentaries flat out. So I think Supersize Me was the first one, my first foot in the door.

The catalyst for change. Yeah. Um, but Yeah, it was, it was a slow kind of stepping into this, this look at health and well being and you know, then listening to, I guess, the effects of the pill and feeling so grateful that I didn't have any of those super long term effects, but then knowing the damages that I needed to also look into.

So yeah, it's been a big unfolding for us. But yeah. I feel like we're pretty much at the same place now, even though your start was a little bit more holistic. 

[00:17:38] Chloe: I've gone, I'm going backwards now. I'm like, ah, forget it all. Just live your life. Be happy. We'll go past Knackers on the way. Yeah, whatever. No, no, I joke, but it's true.

[00:17:50] Loren: Well, thank you both for sharing your stories. You know, that just goes to show You know, no one has lived your life in your body, and no one has the same path as, as you know, each other. I think it's just nice to be able to highlight and acknowledge, like, we all come from different places, and we've all experienced different things.

And, you know, stories can be very inspiring too, so I really appreciate you sharing that. And I, I was laughing earlier because I think I hear chickens. Right. 

[00:18:22] Keshia: Yeah. They are also birthing in our backyard. 

[00:18:25] Loren: Oh. Amazing. 

[00:18:29] Keshia: Yeah, they're really loud.I know. 

[00:18:31] Loren: Oh, it's so cool. I want chickens very badly. I just, I love eggs so much. I can't wait.

[00:18:38] Keshia: And you'll never get a better egg than from your own chickens. The orange, that yolk is insane, so I highly recommend chickens as a part of your fertility. 

[00:18:53] Loren: Yeah. Yes, I'll tell my husband that. But yeah, I'm working on it. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. I think, you know, you mentioned birthing and I think that's just like a great segue because I would love for you both to also, you know, whatever you feel open to sharing, but, uh, sharing about your births, if you wouldn't mind, because you've, you've gone through this four times each now, and you're about to go through it a fifth time.

And I'm just really curious if anything has changed for you over time and, and kind of like, If you also have maybe advice for somebody who's considering what kind of birth they want, uh, for the first time. 

[00:19:35] Keshia: I guess I stepped into the realm of birth with blinkers on and like a face mask. Um, we, when I found out I was pregnant, we definitely went down a very conventional route, having not really looked outside of that.

And that was, I guess what my mom did. I was very lucky with the obstetrician that I ended up with. He has five children of his own who were born at home. So he, and he also actually was the man that delivered me and my siblings. Um, yeah, but he had like quite a lot of trust in a woman's capability to birth.

So I ended up having a very relatively intervention free birth. I say relatively because I do feel that lighting and people in a room and people talking to you is intervention in and of itself. But in terms of medical interventions, I was free of that. And that gave me a lot of confidence. It was a harrowing experience and I guess it's, I could go into it, but I'd take up a few hours of your time.

Um, we do share it on our podcast, but at the same time, it gave me a lot of, confidence in a woman's body. And it brought into question, I guess, a lot of preconceived notions that I had on what we're capable of experiencing as women and being okay. So that I guess sent me on a bit of a trajectory to then not want to go into a hospital again because that was probably the, the gnarliest part of my birth, traveling into a hospital and then being under the lights, like the lights was a big, big deal for me.

And we're just going into quantum biology at the moment on the podcast. That's something that you're very into. But, um, It resonates with me so much because I'm like, Oh my God, the lights, the lights in the hospital, like, Oh my God, it's lights in general. But, um, yeah, it's. That was a really big deal for me and I, I felt when I was at home and in my own space and in that peace and quiet and it was just me and my husband, that's where my contractions picked up.

That's where I got into a groove and then, you know, going to the hospital completely disrupted that. So, the second plan was to, um, to like for our second baby was to just stay at home for as long as possible. And that ended up being until after baby was born. So it was our accidental free birth, which I didn't have the words like all that terminology at the time.

I think free birth thing wasn't like a thing then. It was, I think, the Hospital would coin it, born before arrival. Yeah, and then I guess, going from there, it was just, that, and that was like a just pure bliss, that birth. It was, um, came in a very hectic time in my life, but the birth itself was incredible.

And so then when we fell pregnant, which was a surprise pregnancy third time. I felt very confident in just repeating that and then repeating it again. So, yeah, they were, I guess, in short, that was, um, they were my births. Do you want to go into yours before we give suggestions? 

[00:23:03] Chloe: Yeah, so, um, With mine, I had quite different births, actually. So my first birth, I hadn't really, um, educated myself at all pre pregnancy or planned to be birthing anytime soon. So I was kind of quite unaware, but I was really lucky to have kind of, I just happened to be introduced to a home birth midwife who was a big advocate for home birthing and yeah, so a private mid, I had a private midwife, but I had never birthed before and I, I just, I'd never really even considered what would happen to me.

So I opted to birth in the like birthing center wing, like separate kind of thing to the birthing like normal birthing ward at the hospital and I had a really textbook normal physiological birth, but I, I actually did get a stretch and sweep, which is the only intervention that I've had or had in that birth.

And I just didn't know any better. And it was also because I was I kind of was told so many times that because I was approaching 42 weeks pregnant that just stories like, if you don't do something, you're most likely like, um, I mean, I remember being told very clearly that I'd have like a 1 percent chance of giving birth naturally.

And so this is obviously that was a very untrue statistic, but you know, when you're 42 weeks pregnant, you, um, are definitely, if you're not closing the doors off to people and their stories and their information, then yeah, I basically was just quite vulnerable and like, of course, let's just do it and get the baby going.

And anyway, so I had a really textbook for our physiological baby. water birth with my midwife and then went home a couple hours later. And then after that I was like, wow, birth is easy. I remember it was the first thing I said after I gave birth. I was like, that was so easy. Anyway, so I just knew that I would have a home birth with the same midwife after that when I got pregnant again.

And then that was the plan. And then my baby was born at 35 weeks randomly, which was not the plan. So I ended up having a hospital birth. And it was wild, and Although it was still a physiological unassisted birth, I just could not stand the environment. I had people that I didn't know. I had people trying to like stick things in my arm.

I had like, it was just really stressful being in that environment. And so, yeah, after that experience, I've started really questioning. Like, where I was and what I thought about birth and what decisions and, yeah, just what I didn't want to happen again. And that was being in that was just far from what I wanted.

And there was no real midwife around that was going to support that. So I hired a unregistered midwife for my third birth and ended up having an incredible third birth, um, at home. Um, just. Yeah, unassisted and quite incredibly just normal, uneventful birth. And then for my fourth, I had the same birth keeper and it was also an incredibly uneventful, unassisted home birth as well.

But then, um, ended up transferring actually, because at the time. I didn't have, I didn't get to have a full on physiological placenta birth. And at the time I didn't even really know about that because I was so, you know, focused on birth and in that blissful, unaware state post birth. And so the birth keeper was like pulling, not forcefully, but, you know, You know, like, um, traction and yeah, and kind of hurrying the placenta birth along.

And then, so my understanding now after reflection is that my baby just wasn't ready to be separated in that sequence. So it was all just too soon. The placenta came out too soon. And yeah, like the whole sequence of post birth and that, that all those things that occur would be interrupted. And so that's, I think why we ended up transferring and, um, yeah, because he was having a hard time breathing.

So, so this time around, the fifth time around. I actually just feel really like I don't really have the words for it at the moment, but it's almost just like this pregnancy is just happening in the background and I don't really have any attention for it almost like it's just happening and I totally trust that everything is happening the way it's supposed to be happening and the safest way to give birth with.

perfect outcome for me feels like currently, and this could change and I'm totally open to it changing, that I have to be there by myself almost and that I, that's the guarantee at the moment. And that could change and I could end up hiring another doula or something. But yeah, for now it just feels like this thing that's just happening and it's really no fuss and it's just, Yeah.

I don't know. We don't have the words for it to be completely honest. I don't know if you, resonate 

[00:28:14] Keshia: I feel like what we or what we've been delving into a lot on the podcast especially and considering our current state of being is, is a lot of trust in the female body and the process of procreation and then gestation and birth and that it is just another bodily function that we are.

purely capable of, of doing. And no one, ultimately, no matter where you're birthing, no one can do that for you. Like we, we are the mothers and we are the gate keepers of our body and we, and our babies at this stage. And, um, and it, it, it is, I think, A lot of the information that we've been delving into does support that we're, we are purely capable of doing this and all we need is ourselves and our babies, essentially.

[00:29:08] Chloe: But to add, to become, I mean, we've spoken to a lot of women and shared their stories of, you know, wild pregnancy, free birthing. And I don't even really like to call it that because I just think that it's silly to label it. And it kind of triggers me a little bit, to be completely honest, but. There's never been a time where the mum's like I regret you know, holding, upholding all of that responsibility on myself or trust in myself because almost every single time it's just equated in this beautiful, blissful, peaceful and really normal birth.

And the other, the, you know, the contrast to that is when we talk about the stories of the, you know, birth. Subsequent births, no, the previous births, who, which have been in a hospital environment where there's been, you know, these agendas and stories that are placed upon the woman are like, you know, you've been in labor for 12 hours or 24 or 36 and oh, you're only one centimeter dilated.

Oh, this is happening. Like all these stories that we get told and that's when we start to shut down and close and close down. And it seems like, and this is just my opinion, that that's when. Those cascades of intervention come into play and things actually start to go wrong, if you want to call it that.

So yeah, it's, it's really like been an observation in our podcast that when we're left alone and, you know, we're, we're really truly left. to go through the entire process. That's when the magic happens. And um, yeah, I've really learned that even having a midwife present, it was helpful, but it definitely didn't give me what I truly wanted or felt like I was really capable of achieving.

[00:30:53] Loren: Hey, it's Loren. If you feel overwhelmed because you're not sure where to start preparing your body for pregnancy, if you feel like you've tried everything, then that you can find in books, podcasts, and on social media. If you feel like you get the runaround to your questions with really over generalized answers and information, I see you and I hear you, and this is exactly what I help you do.

I help you cut through the noise and figure out exactly what you need to focus Based on the gaps and weaknesses in your fertility, you already have so much on your plate, and no one has time to waste when it comes to making a baby. And if you're someone who has other unique health situations, like a history of miscarriages, PCOS, endometriosis, Hashimoto's, hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, fibroids, polyps, adenomyosis, unexplained infertility, secondary infertility, maybe you didn't even have your period for a couple of years, or or you're coming off the birth control pill, or maybe you're over 35 or 40 even, or you're trying to conceive while you're breastfeeding, you might even be considering or moving forward with already fertility treatments.

I want to address that too because I know how important it is to get the individualized support that you need. Regardless of whether you have any of those conditions coming into this, my program is not only going to help you specifically address those conditions, because we have specific protocols for all of those unique situations, but the program is also going to teach you the foundational pieces of fertility that cannot be skipped no matter what else is going on.

And this is really often the thing that I see the women that I work with miss. Which is why they think that it's a condition keeping them from getting pregnant, but it's really a combination of the foundations that they're missing, in addition to some of the things that might be really specific to their unique condition and body.

And it's both of these things together, the foundational support and individualized support for your specific condition, that's what's going to increase your fertility and help you get pregnant, and both of those things together are what's in my program. I invite you to learn more by visiting innatefertility.org. Thanks. And if you're loving this show, don't forget to leave a review. Now back to the episode.

[00:33:07] Keshia: And I think, you know, if you're, if we're talking to people going into their first births, like you are Loren, it is, I think like, I mean, I personally was so grateful to have that birth experience in a hospital because when I was going through it, having not done any research and having not, you know, Like very intentionally turned away from it because I was just like I don't want to hear horror stories Like I've got to go through birth and this is something that I have to do and I don't want to scare myself, More than I already know from all the beautiful movies I've seen in Hollywood. I you know, the experience was exactly, played out exactly like a Hollywood movie. And I was so grateful to be in the hospital because there was like a point in there where I was just like, Oh my God, I think I'm like, I'm going to die doing this. But all like everyone in the room, like no one offered me drugs, which I was very grateful for because I was in that vulnerable estate that I would have accepted it straight away.

I was actually, I was transitioning. So I wasn't. vocalizing at all. Um, I was very internal and I couldn't ask for any pain relief or interventions or anything like that. So if someone had offered it, I would have just been like, and I think being in that, that position where there were people witnessing me and not concerned, not trying to save me.

Um, and that's, I think that's really, really rare, especially in the medical system and something that probably people should consider. So often when we're in that most vulnerable state, the people around us do want to save us. And I think that's where the intervention comes in and obviously kicks that beautiful cascade of hormones that we need out the door.

So it's, it's, yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, when it comes to choosing the kind of birth that you want or that you're envisioning, you can have anyone there that you want, if you feel more comfortable having a support, that wise woman there to support you or witness you, if you feel comfortable with just your partner or your mum and your sisters around.

But I think it's a really it's really poignant to realize that it is you and your body and you don't want to be saved. You don't want to be saved from the initiation of motherhood. It's, it's such a powerful thing to go through and we're all like, beautifully, wonderfully capable of doing it. So, and I think we all as women have that deep knowing it just gets clouded by society and cultural standards.

And yeah, and yeah, I think also knowing that when you, when you enter that medical system. It is very much a victim hero mentality. So people are, are going to want to save you and, you know, take, take away your poor pain and, you know, your poor woman who has to go through this, you know, yeah, that, that kind of dynamic that tends to play out, um, there.

So yeah, something to consider, but I would, yeah, definitely, definitely like to encourage everyone to dig into that beautiful wisdom that we all hold and know that we're very, very capable of this wonderful experience. 

[00:36:33] Loren: Yeah. I love that. You know, I think what's really beautiful about what you're saying is that you're encouraging women to take their power back.

You're basically Saying we we do hold the keys. It's just a matter of our decisions. And I think also Part of that is, you know, we are responsible for our decisions as well We will have to contend with the decisions we make too Not even the decisions that people make for us and we let people make for us, we still have to live with the ramifications of that.

And that's something that I think, well, I certainly have, it's a big piece of, um, what I teach, um, in my course, uh, to my fertility students, because if you can't self advocate, you know, I think you're, you're at the risk of, or a mercy of somebody else's Decision making process and that kind of that's doesn't it's not going to work always because no one cares about your own health.

No one cares about your baby's own health more than you do. And so I think that that's just a beautiful reminder. And it's so encouraging because, you know, we do have this our bodies. Our bodies do know how to do this. It's about encouraging women to reestablish their trust in their bodies and to, to really follow their intuition, which has been so disconnected from us for so long.

Um, That's not to say, you know, if you intuitively feel like giving birth in a hospital is like the right place for you, like, go for it. Like that is wherever you feel safest. I'm all about that. But just kind of like knowing what you're getting yourself into and, um, realizing that, you know, while you're giving birth, you're not going to be able to make decisions properly.

[00:38:31] Keshia: And so it's actually quite counterproductive, I guess. Like, because when you're giving birth, You don't, like, you can't be thinking and feeling into what is happening in your body and allowing things and surrendering to the opening and changes that need to happen in order for your baby to come earthside.

So yeah, when, when you do go into that, into that setting and you have to then come back into like, this plane and make decisions or have discussions or tell people no. 

[00:39:04] Chloe: Well, you actually can't because part of your brain completely turns off when you're giving birth for a good reason. And so, yeah, if you have to make big decisions and someone's at you being like, you've got a emergency C section time, you're like, well, hang on.

Yeah, okay. Or you're put on a clock or whatever it is. Yeah, so I think. Um, being firm about what you really want and not just being like, we'll see how things go is really important. And I've definitely been there. I'll see how things go. Um, with my first birth and I just so happened to be so blip and lucky that I was in good hands.

But yeah, I think that self responsibility concept is, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's probably the most important. Yeah. And of course, like we see, I mean, this is probably a lot of the reason why we've got such a problem in the medical establishment when it comes to birth is because women need to blame somebody as well if something bad happens.

And, you know, there are boxes to tick in hospitals and obstetrics because unfortunately women If there is a bad outcome, they're so quick to blame the doctor, blame the hospital, sue, and now, you know, unfortunately we live within these systems and rules and clocks and yeah, so I think reclaiming that and, you know, fully taking that responsibility and having that kind of sovereign outlook is absolutely key.

[00:40:29] Loren: Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective. I haven't really thought about that. That aspect, but when you're laboring, the lizard brain turns on, you know, it's very primitive. All the, all the, uh, brain activity going on, but for you to be making decisions, it's very frontal lobe focus. And that's like, not, not really anything that your body needs at that time.

So I think, what do you do when you have to make decisions when you're laboring, uh, get clear on what you want to do beforehand. Make a plan, get a team that you can trust, make sure you have an advocate, at least one that can help. Really, and this is why I think doulas are amazing. Uh, they will really help support your wishes, uh, in, in times where, you know, things are shifting and changing or, you know, you're being, Given options or being, uh, pressured to do something that maybe wasn't on your birth plan.

So having that support and advocacy, somebody to advocate for you while birth is happening can be really life changing. And I do think it's so interesting that, uh, your obstetrician for your first birth, Kashia, was a father of five who had given or delivered his babies at home. But yet he was an obstetrician working in a hospital. That's so interesting to me. 

[00:41:50] Keshia: Yeah, no. And like, he was a really lovely guy too, but I, I didn't even think about that aspect. Um, going into it, we, we had a few questions, um, about, you know, vaccinations after baby's born and he gave us the answers that we wanted. So that was like the main drawing card, but no, it ended up being quite, um, quite lucky for me, especially because I know that there were quite a few parameters that I hit.

in that hospital birth where had I been with a different care provider, I would have had I been with a different care provider, I, it would have gone a lot differently. So, um, yeah, where there was a few things we had avoided, which was definitely like being on the clock was one of them that was never brought up.

And it was a 22 hour labor birth, uh, labor, sorry, and then birth. So yeah, there were a few things that would have definitely been red flagged had I been in a different, or with someone who wasn't as trusting in the birth process. 

[00:42:58] Loren: Yeah, that's amazing. Well, that, that is a testament to not all obstetricians are the same either.

So, you know, I think there's, um, there can be some good there too, which is great. 

[00:43:14] Keshia: And I think knowing the questions to ask too, and I think a really big, big one if you are going with a care provider is following your gut instinct because we actually, through that pregnancy, had two obstetricians. We were between two states and we weren't quite sure where we were going to have this baby and yeah, one of those obstetricians.

Definitely, just, I, I didn't have the words for it, I couldn't describe it at the time, but there were things that she would say and I'm like, oh, it doesn't sit right with me and I'm very, very glad that that was not my care provider and I think too having the option of experiencing, I guess, the two differences.

helped with the clarity of making that decision. But yeah, if, if you're asking questions and, and there's a power dynamic playing out at any stage, like, I think that's, it's a good time to walk away because it really should be mother centered and, you know, 

[00:44:11] Chloe: Yeah. I think the, I think the idea that obstetricians or midwives know, or they're the experts of your body and your baby and how you're going to birth is really warped. Yeah. And this has been coming up a lot for us, you know, in our show, it's like the mother is 100 percent the expert. Every single time, even if it's your first time, like you are the expert of your birth and your body and ultimately you're going to make the best decision and I think that's really important.

But I will just share something that has come up for me recently and it's like, it's been interesting to observe these things coming up for me because it's my fifth baby and I'm like, this is weird. Why am I thinking about these things? This is the fifth time. But um, yeah, I think because we, you know, have been talking about birth a lot and there's been a lot of stories and.

a lot of sharing. And, um, I think something to consider, especially with your first birth, is the amount of noise that you allow to enter your sphere while pregnant. Because for me recently, you know, we've been fully entrenched in birth and story and, you know, education and all the things. And I think, you know, Absorbing that, whether it's good or bad, really inhibits your ability to have a clear mind when it comes to what you actually want and what you actually need.

So yeah, I also think that silencing the external world to some, to some extent, especially stories and who you're allowing to engage with while you're pregnant, even if it's a friend who just doesn't really have anything positive to say about birth or, yeah, doesn't 

[00:45:53] Keshia: ask questions that kind of, I don't know, would take you out of your choices, yeah, or just knowing your body.

[00:46:01] Chloe: So, 

[00:46:01] Keshia: yeah, 

[00:46:03] Chloe: I think that's been a big one for me. This pregnancy is just really, you know, cause the other times I've just been so sure of my plan, or who's going to be there, or, um. you know, what I'm doing. And then, yeah, this time I've been like, Oh, that's a lot of, um, I'm struggling to find the clarity and the calmness and the groundedness that I need to make some decisions.

And I think it's because there's so much noise, you know, like I've never been one to sit and watch like hours of births and, um, story and, yeah, read a lot about what's going to happen during, during pregnancy. During birth, and so yeah, this time I'm like, holy shit. There's a lot in there. I need to silence out of it.

So, um, yeah, getting clear on what you actually really need and, you know, those important messages from baby. Just, I think it's hard when there's a lot of external noise. 

[00:46:57] Loren: Yeah. I think you're totally right. And I think that there's even like good information, even though if it's helpful, there's such a thing as too much information where it can start to be really harmful in a way mentally.

Um, it, it, you know, it carries a lot of weight sometimes and it can cloud your thinking. So I, I, I've experienced that too in this pregnancy. I think also what you're saying about, you know, be careful about who you let into your sphere, even if they're bringing good information, but also the other flip side, which is, you know, diminishing that trust in yourself.

Pregnancy is a time of shedding layers, and I think that's a really good example of, you know, when you're pregnant you, you re-evaluate a lot, and one of those things are relationships. And sometimes you will find out who really is the one. is a true friend, uh, during your pregnancy, especially once the baby's here and, you know, your schedule changes and, you know, your dynamic changes for sure, absolutely.

But it's, it's never a bad time to reevaluate those things too, because if you're feeling a certain way, that's information that you, that's, that's the kind of information you should be listening to, the, the way you're, you're feeling, uh, and the way that people make you feel. And, uh, that can be really helpful for you to kind of.

see more clearly, okay, this person is not, I never feel right around this person anymore. I don't feel supported. I don't feel they're bringing constructive information to me or it's a constructive relationship anymore. And maybe it's time that I redirect my energy in a different place, uh, where, where I really need to, which is supporting this baby, um, and building a family.

So I thought that was really wise. And, um, Also something else you said, one of the things that I love my midwife for is that she, she is like, you are the expert on your body. And she always reminds me of that. And she's like, you're the one in charge. Um, and you're going to be the one in charge when you're giving birth, your body's going to know exactly what to do.

I'm just going to be there to help you. And, um, I really love her approach so much because it, I feel confident that I'll be able to, um, kind of experience birth in the way that I want to and really, really allow that, really experience a birth that is, uh, kind of uninterfered with, non interfered with, you know, the right words I can't think of right now, but um, the interference will be low. Uninterrupted. 

[00:49:38] Keshia: Yeah. And that's beautiful. And I think there are, I mean, we've met midwives out there who do hold that space and, and birth keepers as well. We've had a beautiful conversation with a wonderful birth keeper who, who holds this incredible space for, um, the woman to go through her initiation and to be the expert in that time because you know what's happening within your body.

And I think it's, it's a really beautiful like wisdom for everyone to hold so that like you are, you're doing it. Like 

[00:50:13] Chloe: there's no, I'll actually share what she shared with us. Pellissier. If anyone wants to look her up, she's so lovely and just simplifies it all. But Something that's really stuck with me as she explains, like, her job is to totally witness the person, the woman in front of her being entirely engulfed by the flames of labor and birth. And, um, Her job is to just observe and also let them know that they're actually going to be fine, even though it feels like you're not going to be fine. Because at times, especially at the end, like when you're so close to the end, it really does feel like you are being engulfed by the flames of fire.

[00:51:03] Keshia: wait, does depend on the birth, Let's not scare everyone because it does depend on the birth

[00:51:03] Chloe: Yeah, but that can be anything. Like sometimes an orgasm can feel like you're being totally engulfed by something otherworldly. 

[00:51:08] Keshia: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:51:10] Chloe: So, you know. It depends on what you want to make, if you want to relate to that as like burning gates of hell versus like, you know, something else.

But, um, being reborn into the star. And it's not to say that that's what birth is, but just as a birth keepers role or a midwife's role is to allow the person to feel that because sometimes it is intense and, but it's not deathly, it's just intense. And that's what, that's, that's Um, really important, like you have to go through it is what I'm trying to say.

[00:51:38] Keshia: Yeah. It's, they're allowing the initiation of motherhood, which is, it's incredible. It's wild. I mean, I've experienced very hard births, two and two very easy, blissful births. And obviously three of those were outside of the system. So I, I feel like if someone had of, yeah, taken me out of that initiation, I wouldn't have the tools I have today as a mother to parent my children.

It's like, like this process. it leaves an imprint on you that makes, I don't know, it gives you the power and the know, like the deep knowing that any rough patch you go through, parenting is also just a phase. Like birth is an incredible transformative experience, but it is just a phase, whatever you feel through it.

So it's, um, yeah, I feel like these initiations can sometimes get taken away from us. But when, when you do have the right people supporting you, it, God, it's brilliant, isn't it? 

[00:52:40] Chloe: Hence why we're doing it for the fifth time. 

[00:53:05] Keshia: I'm so excited about it, so excited.

[00:52:42] Loren: I'm excited for you. Maybe we'll have to have you back to go through your birth story, if you're up for it.

[00:52:50] Chloe: Birth stories. Oh, I know. Mine will be pretty boring. I think, yeah, I just had the baby and it just happened. Kept going. No, I'll make it, I'll make it spicy and eventful for you. 

[00:53:05] Keshia: But no, I think. That's kind of what you want for everyone, just like, kind of, like, while it's for the woman, a beautiful transformative experience, all you've got to explain is, yeah, I felt labor coming on, baby came out, put the baby on my boob, and we're all jay, like that's, that's kind of the best outcome, so, yeah.

[00:53:27] Loren: Yeah. Yeah, well, I've so enjoyed chatting with you, Kashia and Chloe, and I could honestly continue for so many more hours, but I know you have to go. So I want to just make sure that anyone listening can figure out how to find you. So if you wouldn't mind sharing kind of how they can reach out to you or, you know, listen to your podcast.

[00:53:51] Chloe: Mm hmm. So our personal, we have, obviously you can find us on our personal Instagram, mine is just @ChloePacey. And then our Instagram is theroadtowisdom.podcast. And our podcast is everywhere. Um, our videos are on YouTube and, and also 

[00:54:10] Keshia: on iTunes now, we've just swapped provider, but yeah, you can find our podcast everywhere.

Uh, and it's the Road to Wisdom podcast. So yeah, if you come join us. Yeah. Oh, and my personal Instagram is super interesting. I'm not very active on it. It's Kashia_TanyaZini. Try and spell that one, but I can send it to you. You can put it in the show notes. Um, yeah, but I mean, yeah. If anyone comes over and joins us, sing out because we love hearing feedback and we love to hear what other people want from us because exploring new topics is like our, it's our jam.

[00:54:53] Chloe: There's also lots of birth. If you want to hear about any more of this, birth, plenty of that. And obviously we have our beautiful episode with you, Loren, which was received really well too. 

[00:55:04] Keshia: And yeah, that's us. Thank you for having us. It's been a joy. 

[00:55:08] Loren: Yes, thank you so much for being here and for your time.

And it's really special just also because we're, we're all, uh, due to the season that we're All in. Um, and I'll, I'll have to stay in touch with you and see how, uh, everything's going with your pregnancies. Um, but yeah, it was a pleasure. We'll stay in touch and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

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