Innate Wisdom Podcast

What It's About:

Join Loren Sofia, Functional Fertility Coach and owner of Innate Fertility, and Annie Kerchief, best known as mom.mindfully on Instagram, mother of two and an incredibly informed and outspoken advocate for mothers, as they discuss various pregnancy interventions.

In this episode, you’ll learn about:

-Annie’s personal experience going past her due date, past 42 weeks
-Annie’s planned freebirth contingency
-Making decisions out of fear versus taking responsibility
-What it means to truly surrender
-Following your intuition and exercising it as a muscle
-What you should know regarding pregnancy inteversions, including: Ultrasounds NIPS Amniocentesis RhogamIron testing Glucose tolerance testing Group B strep
-Navigating the decision-making process during pregnancy

 

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Loren: Welcome to the Innate Wisdom podcast. I'm your host, Loren Sofia, healer of my own fertility and health struggles, mother, functional fertility coach to thousands of women, and owner of Innate Fertility. I believe your body is innately wise and so is your fertility. Sometimes we just need the tools to unlock it in abundance.

I'm honored to guide you through each episode where we'll cover not just fertility, but how to rediscover the innate wisdom of your body, Restore your connection with your physiology, bioenergetics, and metabolism, and get back in touch with Mother Nature and ancestral traditions.

Welcome to the first episode of Season 3 of the Innate Wisdom Podcast! I'm so excited to be back with you. Last season, I was in the midst of growing a little human and relaunching my course, Conscious Conception. You can definitely expect an episode dedicated to my birth story and my postpartum journey so far, in due time.

In the meantime, though, I'm super grateful to be able to bring you another information packed season of reconnecting with the innate wisdom of your body. I want to introduce you to Annie Kerchief, who I'm speaking with today on the show. She's best known as mom. mindfully on Instagram. She's a mother of two and an incredibly informed and outspoken advocate for mothers.

She's amazing. And in this episode, we're chatting about various pregnancy interventions, which I get asked about all the time. You heard me talk about my own journey with a lot of these. I'm going to be doing a video on how to do these interventions in the solo episode last season, and she's going to help break down what you need to know, including about things like ultrasounds, NIPS testing, amniocentesis, RoGAM, which is a big one, iron testing, glucose tolerance testing, group B strep, and more.

You'll even hear her own story about what it was like to give birth at 42 weeks and 6 days, including what she had to face, as well as her precipitous free birth. Thank you Stay tuned because we'll also be talking about navigating these decisions and I think Annie has a really balanced and real perspective to offer.

I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to another episode of the innate wisdom podcast today. I'm welcoming Annie Kirchhoff with us. Welcome, Annie. I'm so happy to have you here. 

[00:02:21] Annie: Hi, Loren. Thanks for having me. 

[00:02:23] Loren: Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. I so admire your work and you know what you have to say and share with everyone, uh, especially on social media.

I've been following you for quite some time now. And I just knew I had to have this conversation with you and you know, for those of. the audience that are maybe are not as familiar with you. Would you mind sharing kind of your story and what you're all about? 

[00:02:50] Annie: Sure, so I'm a mom of two. My babies are four and 18 months now.

I stay at home with them and for the sake of this conversation, it's probably relevant that they were both born at home. My first pregnancy and my interactions with the medical system, I learned that much of what first time moms are led to believe is not serving them and their babies well and oftentimes isn't accurate.

And my first birth really lit a fire in me to start having these conversations. When I was 32 weeks pregnant with my first, I switched from my OB's office to a home birth plan. And when I did that, I felt like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. Um, I knew that's what was right for me. And That first birth change everything like I think it does for a lot of moms.

And so I advocate for what's biologically normal between mothers and their babies and I encourage women to Tune in and listen to their intuition because I think a lot of what we're told During our transition into motherhood conditions us out of listening to that 

[00:03:54] Loren: Thank you for that. I think that's so important.

And it's so helpful to hear that from other mothers. You know, I feel like there's definitely a lot of sort of practitioners that maybe are on the other side that sort of Preach this alternative sort of, I guess, breaking away of the conventional mainstream way of looking at birth and things like that.

But hearing it from, you know, someone's actual experience and somebody who's, you know, gone through it and empower themselves with the information, um, is, is, I think so powerful too. And it's, it's really important to hear personal stories as well, which is why I'm excited to talk to you. 

[00:04:36] Annie: Yeah. I love hearing from other mothers.

I think our stories are really powerful. Our experiences are really powerful and yeah, I love anecdotes. I love learning from the stories of other mothers and connecting the dots and learning the patterns between those stories. 

[00:04:49] Loren: Yeah, absolutely. It's really the thread that weaves and makes it a reality too, I think.

So, I love that. And, I guess, this would be a great segue too, because you talked about your, your births. But would you mind sharing a bit more about your births? Birth stories and you know, you can choose one you can cover both whatever you'd like to share I'm sure the audience would love to hear it. 

[00:05:16] Annie: Yes, so I can give you the shorter version of both of them My first I went what most would consider very overdue.

I was over 42 weeks although I was not completely sure of my due date and Regarding due dates, there's just so much stress put on moms, which is really the worst thing when you're very, very pregnant. Um, I was stressing about my due date so much. And according to them, I was 42 weeks and six days when I had my first.

So, but he finally came and my whole labor was a little over six hours. And I just took it as it came. 

[00:06:00] My whole reason for researching, like, just unmedicated birth in the first place, not even home birth, was because I was scared of needles. Which might sound silly to some. But I just knew that I didn't want that to be a part of my birth experience, and then I went down a rabbit hole that landed me into having a baby in my bedroom.

So my first birth, I used some hypnobirthing and was just had headphones in the whole time and was breathing and taking it, you know, moment by moment. And he was a large baby. He was 11 and a half pounds. But looking back, I'm so grateful that I didn't have anybody in my first pregnancy getting in my head, trying to guess his size.

Um, cause I didn't have a growth scan. So I wasn't worried like, Oh, he's going to be so big. I'm not going to be able to give birth to him. I, I had no idea. And he was my first baby, so I had nothing to compare him to. He looks tall to me. [00:07:00] So I spent a lot of my birth just sitting on our bathroom toilet, which is really glamorous.

Um, but that's pretty common for moms to find themselves being most comfortable there. I just didn't want to move. I was there for most of the time and my husband was my support during that. It was my husband, my midwife and my midwife's assistant. And I pushed for about two hours. And I think partially that's because I was a little too up in my head, like, okay, I'm supposed to start pushing now.

Um, I was like telling myself that, and so that's what I tried to do. So, it went, it went well anyway. But looking back, I don't know if I would have really had to push for two hours if I was just kind of, Not thinking and just doing and letting it happen, but yeah, he was born at like 4. 30 in the morning and we just laid in bed and snuggled and it was wonderful.

[00:08:00] It was everything I wanted and I always heard when I was pregnant that, The moment that you think you can't do it anymore. That's when baby's coming but I never really hit that wall and i'm only saying that because I want other moms to hear that is like they might anticipate Labor getting so bad that they have that moment if I can't do this anymore, which You might but I just never really hit that wall.

And I think that's very much a mindset thing of just the only way out Is through so? Just take it as it comes And then my second, my babies are two and a half years apart, almost to the day, so my second is my baby girl, and her birth was what's considered a precipitous labor, a very precipitous labor, um, which is considered three hours or less.

But her entire labor was just over an hour, and she was born. 

[00:09:00] So, I woke up early in the morning, and I thought I was just going to ease my way into it, put some music on, wash my face, and, um, I very quickly hit transition. My contractions went from like seven, eight minutes apart to immediately like two minutes apart.

And my husband was trying to lay our son down in another, in his room on the other side of the house. And I ended up having to yell for him to come back because he didn't realize how quickly things were progressing. So he almost missed his daughter's birth of being on the other side of the house because she came so quickly.

But yeah, that was the definition of fetal ejection reflex that you hear about where you don't push, you have no control over it. The baby just comes out. Um, it was incredibly quick. I was leaning over our bed and I felt her head and I told John, I said, the baby's coming. And I think he, in his head was like, well, yeah, you know, I know what we're doing here, but didn't realize how quickly.

[00:10:00] And then she. Basically flew out and he caught her. So yeah, that was incredibly quick. My birth team did not make it in time, which when I was pregnant with her, I just had this feeling they wouldn't make it. My doula lived very close by, but my midwife was two hours away. So I just kind of knew she wouldn't make it.

So we had that in our minds and kind of planned for if that happened and it did. So we just did the same thing. I could tell that she. Was, um, healthy from the beginning. She was crying loudly and we just sat there and waited for my placenta to come out. And I just started nursing her and eventually my doula and wife showed up, but it was a wonderful experience.

Um, precipitous labors can kind of go either way because it is very fast, very intense, but I loved it. I would do it all over again. So yeah, those are my two births. 

[00:11:01] Loren: Oh, thank you so much for sharing those really special times in your life and probably the most memorable points of your life. Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful.

And they're, they're so different. It sounds like, but. They have very unique commonalities, too. Um, I'm just curious if you, with your first, had any reservations or concerns about being 42 weeks and 6 days, like, over the 42 week mark, because I feel like this is something that a lot of women deal with. For some reason, I feel like we get really attached to our due dates, and It's almost like this expectations pressure that we end up putting on ourselves and because we know this thing now We can't stop looking at it.

It's almost like we've seen it now we can't stop looking and it's a constant reminder and I feel like with sure with with a lot of things in the modern world like deadlines are Definitely a thing, but I think in terms of human beings, it's, it's hard to like really put deadlines and things like that timestamps on things.

And I'm just curious if you felt like, you know, the same anxiety around going past 42 weeks, because I understand you are under different care, but even some midwives will. Make that the cutoff depending on the state you're in and the legality of it. So just curious as to like, Oh, I know this is quite a loaded question, but, um, you know, what was going through your head there and how you kind of reconciled all that.

[00:12:42] Annie: Yeah. So whenever you're under the mainstream medical model, it's kind of looked at as an expiration date, not really a due date when really, as, especially as a first time mom, you're more likely to go past it than you are before it. If you go into labor spontaneously, so my midwife was not pushy at all about my due day or, Oh no, we have to get baby out soon.

She really wasn't. And I did have a lot of anxiety. I made the mistake of being a first time mom of, Oh, I'm going to be that one that has my baby at 38 weeks. Like I got that in my head, which. Don't do that if you're having your first baby, I would not recommend it because I, it was over a month after that, that I was still pregnant.

And, um, I wasn't worried from like a health standpoint. Um, I wasn't fearful of going over 42 weeks. All the pressure and anxiety that I felt was from my just conditioning that I still hadn't completely let go of that someone could make me get induced or make me. Do something that I didn't want to do.

And so I was very stressed out about it. I actually ended up undergoing two membrane sweeps that I asked for. Nobody pressured me into it, but it was just out of fear. 

[00:14:00] And I don't even know what I was afraid of. I just felt like this wasn't right. This wasn't my plan. I don't know if it's just my control freak tendencies, but it was really just that anxiety from viewing it as.

So, yeah, it all came from that. I myself should not have been worried about it. It came from those fears that I still had. 

[00:14:30] Loren: Yeah. And I think that's also something that even women Pursuing a more alternative model of care will have to sort of, you know, tend to. It sounds like you are trying to maintain control so that if you did have to get any procedure done, it wouldn't be like taken, that control wouldn't be taken away from you, if that makes sense.

[00:14:52] Annie: Yeah, I think it probably was some of that, and like, even at the time, I didn't know anybody in my personal life who had had a home birth, so I, from everyone else's perspective, was doing this very alternative, weird thing, but now I look back and I see that, I see it as I still had one foot in the mainstream model and one foot in the holistic model just because of my mindset, because I had.

That residual fear and anxiety from the media and just our culture surrounding birth here. I barely knew anybody who had had an unmedicated birth, let alone a home birth. It's just not, it's not the norm. So yeah, I was still not taking full ownership at that time, even though I was having my baby outside of the hospital.

And I think that's where the fear and the anxiety came from. 

[00:15:46] Loren: Thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I think it's also probably more clear now and probably easier to articulate now, but it was your first time. So, you know, have some compassion. I'm sure you've gone through this too. 

[00:16:00] It's important for anyone going through there, you know, doing something for the first time to have compassion for themselves.

And also I think Annie brings up a great point where. It's really important to, to not let other people's projections of what their ideal birth looks like or what you should do because they think this is the best for you. Kind of get in the way or cloud your, what you want as far as your birth and your ideal birth and really allow yourself that space to have that sort of frame of mind going into birth and really release.

Because if you have all these, like, little projections that people are just placing on you, and I'm experiencing it right now, you know, not everyone in my life is, you know, supportive of me having a home birth, even close family, and I'm having to contend with that. 

[00:17:00] And, I'm having to really hold strong to clear my emotional responses to that, because I know what I want, but even so, you know, just allowing these little thoughts into your head space, which is very sacred, especially leading up to birth can, can make things a little complicated. 

[00:17:18] Annie: So, um, yes, it, it does. I, um, Worked an office job at the time and I worked until 10 days past my quote unquote due date. And so, I mean, the comments were constant, like, why are you still here? Why are you still pregnant?

Why have they not induced you yet? And it's always framed as something being done to you. Why have they not induced you? Why have they not made you get induced yet? And yeah, it's, it's tough when you're past that day. I remember early on in that first pregnancy asking the doctor I was seeing at the time, like, are you okay with me going to 42 weeks?

And I look back, I'm like, I would never ask that now. It's not their decision. Um, but I still had that in my mind that there was going to be someone who could enforce that on me and make me do something. 

[00:18:05] Loren: Yeah, and it's, it's almost like you were asking permission, like, is it okay? And yeah, I think it's really important to understand that you are the one that is in control of it all.

And you can accept as many things as you'd like, which we'll talk about very soon, uh, or you can turn them down. And, uh, we'll, we'll talk about a couple of things in a couple of examples, but it's important to remember that, remember that. And I think because of the way we. been conditioned with the modern medical system.

It's, it's, we're used to asking permission because we, of course, we don't know our bodies. well at all. It's, it's the doctor that knows best. So it's kind of undoing that, that sort of conditioning and it's hard, it's hard and it takes time. But I found that once I truly started taking control of my health and really responsibility, radical responsibility for my health, that's when things started shifting in the absolute most positive direction very quickly.

[00:19:00] And, um, you know, I think it's just something to think about as well. And not to say, you know, if you do want. To pursue a more conventional way of birth, that's fine, but it's important to be informed as well, and to know that you have choices instead of just, you know, allowing other people to make decisions for you, because ultimately, you're the one that's still going to have to live with those decisions regardless, so.

[00:19:27] Annie: Yes, exactly. And that is, I mean, I think, I think you said it all and those choices are still yours, whatever they look like. Like you said, you are the one who holds those pregnancy and birth experiences with you forever. And I still hear so often, I didn't know I had a choice because it's not framed that way by the majority of providers.

It's, this is what you do. You are put on an assembly line and this is the way it goes. Um, But they are always our choices and whatever you want them to look like, it's up to you to own those. 

[00:20:01] Loren: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I couldn't agree more. And just a couple, couple more things I wanted to talk about with your birth story.

Um, You know, I loved how you said that the moment you think you can't do it anymore, the baby's coming. Like you've heard that before from other women, you never hit this wall. And I think that's really inspiring because I feel like there's this sort of perception of birth that it's supposed to be this extremely difficult thing.

And yes, A lot of women do have difficult births, long births, uh, but it doesn't have to be something that you have to be scared of or worried about that you're going to be, you know, hitting this kind of like place where, you know, it sounds like almost internal hell, mental hell. Um, but, um, I love that you shared that you, you know, you didn't experience that.

Did you, do you think that had anything to do with the way that you prepared for your pregnancy? 

[00:20:57] Annie: Yes, I do think partially, and I think the other part is just a personality thing, like a stubbornness thing, like, this is what we're doing, and that's it. The only way to get to the end is to go through it, and During my birth, like I said, I used some hypnobirthing, but I very quickly realized early in labor that I could not dissociate.

I could not escape. It was too intense. Um, and I'm not saying that's what all hypnobirthing is intended to do, but I do think that's often how it's used. It's from a place of fear and wanting to escape. And so I realized early on in my labor that that was impossible. So I just went the complete opposite and I tuned in and got very specific about what I was feeling.

And that might sound scarier to some women. I think it just kind of depends on the person. But for me, it helped to name what I was feeling. I'm feeling pressure. I'm feeling tightness. I'm where specifically am I feeling it and not just, Oh, I'm in this huge generalized pain. 

[00:22:00] That wasn't helpful to me. So, I got very specific and tuned into my body, and I think that helped a lot, just as far as my mindset, because if you change from the conventional model to the holistic model of birth, you kind of go from, okay, this is what a, a, most births in a hospital look like, and then you can kind of get trapped in the same box in the holistic space of, okay, this is what an out of hospital birth looks like.

You're going to have these painful contractions, but you know, you're unmedicated, so just breathe through it, and you're going to feel this ring of fire, and it's going to be awful, and you're going to hit this wall, and you're going to be, you know, mad at your husband and saying you can't do it anymore.

Um, and Like, you know, don't lay on your back and there's all these rules specific to like the natural birth community but Really, that's just another box and your birth might not look like that at all and so I realized that I never really had that point where I felt like I can't do this anymore and I just think that's important for some women to hear because your Home birth birth center birth might not look like the women that you read their stories in the facebook birth group It could be completely different from theirs too 

[00:23:15] Loren: Yeah, thanks for that.

I think that's a really important point because even with home births, we can go into birth with a lot of expectations that can hold us back and Uh, it sounds like you were able to completely surrender and immerse yourself and also be fluid. You know, you thought it might go this one way, but you quickly changed and realized that wasn't going to work and you were able to accept that change instead of resist it.

And I think that speaks to why You probably had, uh, uh, you know, a, a faster labor than a lot of first time moms and a very fast second labor, uh, because you were able to make this shift quickly with your whole body. 

[00:24:00] And I think that is really important. It speaks to not just being able to have this kind of birth that you went through, but also In life and getting pregnant in the first place to, uh, when it, you know, relates back to just trying to conceive.

Um, I think that there's a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves and expectations and a lot of it, you know, preparing for birth is beautiful. Preparing for conception is beautiful pregnancy. But if we try to control and force every single aspect, I think there's a saying. What you resist persists. So like, if you resist this thing, not happening, your expectation, not unfolding the way it is, it's going to persist in the way that you don't want it to.

And I think that your births are a beautiful example of that, of the opposite. 

[00:24:45] Annie: Yeah. Surrender is the key. And that can be so frustrating when you're a control freak like me. But yeah, that really is the key. To it all and when I was it was actually my second was a due date baby and that day before My husband and I both we didn't speak about it, but we just kind of knew she would came that she would come that night and it's amazing what happens when you Just let go of all the expectations and completely tune in because we both completely knew and we were right She came that night and um Very quickly, because once I realized I was in labor, the whole mindset was just like, here we go, whatever it looks like, it's going to be what it is and full surrender.

I'm not saying anybody who does that's going to have hour long labor, but you never know. No expectations. 

[00:25:38] Loren: Yeah, I think that's a good reminder. Healthy reminder. Okay, so thank you so much for that, Annie. I, I loved chatting with you about your births, and thank you so much for sharing something so personal and special.

I really appreciate that. 

[00:25:50] Annie: Yep, I think we need to talk about it. I think birth stories are important to share. 

[00:25:53] Loren: They are, they are. And yeah, I hope this helps someone, you know, if you're listening, you know, hear another perspective, because I think the more birth stories you hear, especially if you're preparing for birth, the really, the more empowered you can become.

And not to say, you know, it has to be exactly the same way that Annie experienced it. And if you didn't experience it this way, that means you did something wrong, but it can help to hear other people's perspectives and, uh, just stories and, you know, you know, Also help you navigate and kind of make decisions around it too.

And speaking of decisions, we kind of alluded to this earlier, but I would love to discuss, you know, we were, we were talking about the choices, being able to choose, and again, like you said, a lot of what's given to us during pregnancy, a lot of the procedures, a lot of the testing it's, it's framed as not a choice, and I would love to.

Talk about some of these things that were sort of faced with during pregnancy and really bombarded with because these decisions can also be really difficult for a lot of women to navigate due to this fear of, uh, or pressure from external sort of sources, including their doctor, but also maybe their family and even their partner sometimes.

And, um, Would you mind speaking to sort of what your experience and what you know about, uh, ultrasounds, which are the most common sort of procedure done or intervention, I should say, uh, done during pregnancy. What are the needs to knows around this? 

[00:27:33] Annie: Yes. So what's really important when you're talking about ultrasounds is to discern between what type of ultrasound you're talking about.

Are you talking about a diagnostic ultrasound, like the 20 week anatomy scan? Or are you talking about a growth scan that might? take place in the third trimester where they're trying to guess the size of your baby. 

[00:28:00]  Um, those are two different things. So growth scans are notoriously inaccurate, often off by two pounds in either direction.

Um, I can't tell you how many moms I've talked to who are told they're going to have a 10 pound baby and their baby is seven pounds and something ounces. It's so common. So those are not. improving outcomes, they are increasing the c section rate. So, your baby's size in the vast majority of cases is not a risk factor, but your provider's bias regarding your baby's size absolutely is.

And that can really shift what your birth ends up looking like, is what your provider is expecting out of your baby. So, as far as a diagnostic ultrasound, like a 20 week ultrasound, those are on the whole not improving outcomes either, and people don't like to hear that, but that doesn't mean no one has ever benefited from getting one or learned really helpful information that helped them prepare for their baby's birth and the care they would need immediately after.

[00:29:00] That absolutely happens. But, these have really only been commonplace in normal pregnancy for a few decades, and our outcomes are not getting better, um, partially because if you have a pregnancy that does have some kind of, um, structural malformation or congenital disorder, when you break down the data, there's about a 50 50 shot of whether it will get diagnosed or not on an ultrasound.

A lot are missed. Some are misdiagnosed, there are false positives, so when you group all that together, you lead to, um, a lot of more ultrasounds and more interventions that weren't necessary to begin with because nothing was wrong. And then, um, a lot of things that are missed and there is something wrong but you didn't know about it.

So. I think mothers need to decide what their risk tolerance is, and which ones they're more comfortable with, because there's really no risk free option, which I don't mean to sound with. 

[00:30:00] I'm not pessimistic because it's not, it's just life. There are risks and benefits to all decisions and I think mothers need to weigh that for themselves and not allow their provider's risk assessment to be projected onto them because ultimately it's up to you.

More information is not always better, especially depending on the validity of that information and whether or not it's actually going to change your plan. Um, I'm the kind of person where if it's not going, or if it's very unlikely. To change my course of action. I don't need it when I'm when I'm pregnant.

I don't want it. Um, because it's just more to fill my head and stress about but some women avoid ultrasound because of the potential for heating of the tissue, especially if the sonographer is like holding the wand over a certain place for too long. That's the primary concern. And there's not a ton of data on this, unfortunately.

Um, I don't think it's something that's been looked at enough. It's just one of those things that got labeled like, Yep, it's safe and we're moving on. 

[00:31:00] And a lot of women, when they step out of the medical model, they may buy themselves one of those Dopplers to use at home as an alternative to getting a traditional ultrasound, but those actually heat the tissue more so than a traditional ultrasound machine.

So that's just something to know. Not to say that either one should never be used, but you just need to be informed about how often it's appropriate to use them, what circumstances it's appropriate to use them in, and if you want to do it at all, that's your choice. Thanks. 

[00:31:28] Loren: I think that's a really balanced perspective, um, and I like how you're approaching it from, and this is the way I approach any test really, uh, is like, okay, if you knew what the results were.

Would you actually do anything? Would you be prepared to act upon it? Because if not, then, you know, maybe getting this test done, even from a preconception standpoint, like, if you're undergoing any of these tests, but you're not willing to make lifestyle changes, or you're not willing to, um, you know, you know that morally or your values, this is not going to align with the results and what you might have to do might not align with your values and morals, then Why, why get it done anyway?

Um, so I think that that is a really healthy perspective, but, you know, you might be somebody that wants to know and might act upon it too. I think there are some really great points. So I, I've had people in my life. So a distant, um, Sort of, uh, well, a friend of our family's, um, her niece, uh, for example, she went for her 20 week scan and found that her daughter had, she had amniotic band syndrome, so her daughter would be born with no hand, actually.

Uh, that's where it cut off. And amniotic band syndrome, you can Google it, but Essentially, it's the, the amniotic sac grows in a way that sort of prevents your baby from fully forming properly. 

[00:33:00] Um, and so they may be, uh, dealing with some disabilities when they come out of the womb and, and in life. And so that was helpful for her because she was able to prepare to have a, you know, to prepare and support her daughter with her disability.

I've had the opposite happen where, you know, one of my students, for example, she Felt pressured to get an ultrasound at 20 weeks from her midwife. Um, and this is a whole other story because she wouldn't have chosen this midwife. She had just moved to a new country and this is the way that the healthcare system operated.

So, um, she wasn't able to have as much choice as far as, you know, even midwifery. And I think it's important to also acknowledge the differences within countries. Here in the United States, you can choose to choose. Go to an OBGYN, you can choose a midwife, uh, but, uh, for some countries where medication, I'm sorry, medical, the medical system is more socialized.

[00:34:00] You kind of get assigned, uh, people. So, you know, she had something come up, uh, well, the, the ultrasound tech thought she saw a cord insertion issue. And then this completely stressed her out and her, her care team out and kind of led her to more interventions and more, uh, monitoring. And then when the baby was born, it was nowhere to be found.

And so this, this sort of, uh, misdiagnosis. Is is very real. Um, even my cousin, for example, she thought she was going to have a second boy gut. And she, you know, goes by all the conventional medical systems wishes and wants. And, um, she got the 20 week scan. She was preparing to have another boy and the baby gets here and it's a girl.

So, you know, I think, um, that just goes to show, even with all the testing that we can do today, like, you know, it is. 

[00:35:00] It can still be wrong. Um, so, uh, and I think, I think what you said about also the ultrasound technology as well, it's important to know it can heat up the tissues. That's really the primary concern.

Um, and if they're also offering these like 3d and 4d ultrasound scans now, and these are kind of different. Uh, from sort of like the diagnostic ones, they're actually, I think they're more so to like have keepsakes almost, and the thing about these is that usually they're using the wand longer. And so the tissues can heat up longer and, um, you may be getting.

this ultrasound from a place where they aren't necessarily super trained on giving ultrasounds in the best, most safe way possible. It's not like, you know, your, your sonographer, it is probably somebody else. 

[00:36:00] Um, and the heating can also potentially create bubbles in the blood, uh, which is a concern and yeah, the Doppler even, um, you know, a lot of these technologies that we.

Commonly rely on even in the alternative sort of earth space. They haven't been studied for very long and my midwife is very cautious about using the Doppler on me because she's like, you know We we don't know we don't know as much as we should and it's hard to say so You know, if you, if you were thinking about getting a Doppler to have at home, you know, that's, that's something to also think about.

So I think again, as Annie said, it's, it's really comes down to what you are willing to, what kind of like what you want to experience and just knowing and being informed that all this information is not necessarily going to yield better outcomes. You know, we have one of the highest maternal death rates in the most developed countries and that's That says something.[00:37:00] 

Um, so the outcomes aren't necessarily better, but what will you do with that information? And I think that's the most important question to ask yourself. 

[00:37:08] Annie: Yeah, there are those, um, like boutique ultrasound places are becoming a lot more popular. And what's interesting is the FDA says, you know, ultrasounds are safe.

They're great. You should definitely get them when you're pregnant, but you know, just in case you definitely shouldn't do 3d or 4d imaging just for the sake of having a keepsake. It's like, okay. Is it perfectly safe or not? So, the problem is we don't know. So My second pregnancy, I opted to not have any ultrasound or Doppler usage.

And my midwife used a fetoscope on me, but with a fetoscope, you cannot hear the heartbeat as early on as you can with an ultrasound. So I did not hear her heartbeat until I was, I think, at the very beginning of my third trimester. And I didn't feel her kick until the day I was 20 weeks and not having had any ultrasound up until that point, that was a very like intense, meaningful moment that I remember distinctly.

I did not, um, remember it as well with my first, cause I was, you know, having The Doppler at every OB visit and things like that. But when I felt those kicks with my second and I hadn't had any ultrasound or Doppler at all, that was very emotional and really cool and just allowing my body to give me that reassurance that she was there.

Um, cause pregnancy is weird. You get in your head, you're like, am I even pregnant? You don't have all these tests done. Um, but yeah, it's just, Very different going through pregnancy without it. But I've also heard from women who didn't plan on having any ultrasounds. They got this feeling in their pregnancy like they should, even though that completely wasn't their intention.

They didn't want it, their intuition was just telling them, You should have somebody take a look and they found something. So it always amazes me. what our intuition can tell us when we're willing to listen. I think those stories are incredible. So there is definitely a time and a place and I think the mother needs to be trusted in those decisions.

[00:39:14] Loren: Hey, it's Loren. Did you experience a pregnancy complication with your last pregnancy? Have you been told you'll probably have this issue during pregnancy since your mother or sister experienced it like preeclampsia gestational diabetes? hyperemesis gravidarum, group B strep, morning sickness, and others.

While nothing is 100 percent preventable, and anyone who tells you differently would be lying, there are definitely risk factors that come with all pregnancy complications that you can address and before pregnancy for the most part. And my goal is to always help you stack the cards in your favour so that you can minimize the risk from them happening.

Take one of my students, for example, who experienced gestational hypertension with her first pregnancy that led to a forced induction which she didn't want to experience with her next pregnancy. 

[00:40:00] By putting specific nutrition and lifestyle strategies into place, she was She was able to completely avoid any single trace of high blood pressure with her second pregnancy.

And my other student, who dealt with morning sickness with her first and second pregnancies, but by implementing my prenatal strategy, was able to completely avoid it with her third. You can learn the specific preconception risk factors for various complications and the step by step steps to avoid them.

You can take to minimize the risk of them happening in my e course Conscious Inception. You can learn more about the course at innatefertility. org slash get dash pregnant. And if you're loving this show, don't forget to leave a review. Now back to the episode.

Thank you for that. That's beautiful. And I think that's really well said and I couldn't agree more. You know, I think there's also the aspect of like pregnancy after loss and maybe entering fear of um, you know, a more alternative model where you have less intervention but you, you know, you have all this trauma from the previous pregnancy and maybe you, maybe you mentally need to see your baby on the screen and that is going to give you just The piece that you need.

And so just another perspective to add on top of Annie's, um, you know, that intuition, or there's so many ways to approach this and. There's no right or wrong answer really, but um, you know, it's just about being informed and, and knowing kind of like what you value and what aligns with you the most and following that intuition as well, if it's telling you something.

[00:41:42] Annie: Absolutely. 

[00:41:43] Loren: Well, thank you for that, Annie. I, I so appreciate that. So I would love to talk about some other pregnancy interventions, like other tests, including NIPS and. amniocentesis. So these are the genetic testing options that you typically presented with. Um, amniocentesis is less so presented as an option because it's more invasive nowadays.

But, um, you know, I'd love to hear from your perspective to kind of what we should know about that. 

[00:42:15] Annie: Yes. So the NIPS or blood testing. Is often covered by insurance. So I think a lot of women, even their providers are under the impression that it is this legitimate, perfect science, FDA approved thing. And it's actually not any of those things.

What it's looking for is not a good identifier of genetic disorders. And there was actually a New York times article on this with some really scary statistics in it. So basically for every. 15 times that, that testing properly or accurately identifies a disorder. It is wrong 85 times. 

[00:43:00] So the false positive rate is incredibly high.

And if you come back negative for your baby having any of those disorders, maybe that could give you some peace of mind. But if they come back positive for something, it's actually more likely that it's wrong than that it's right. So, D, I think it's relatively effective at identifying Down syndrome, but for the more rare disorders, what's called the positive predictive value is somewhere between 2 and 30%, so basically for every 10 positive results, at least 7 of them are wrong.

Between 7 and 10, they could all be wrong. So, it's just, there are some very big decisions made off of these blood tests, and it absolutely shouldn't be. If there is a positive result, you can be referred for amniocentesis, which does carry a small risk of miscarriage, but it is infinitely more accurate at identifying these.

So, there just should not be huge life altering choices based off of the blood test. 

[00:44:00] Amniocentesis is very accurate, like over 99 percent accurate, but, um, like I said, also carries that small risk of miscarriage, and then it's also something you need to take into account if you are, um, an Rh negative mother and have the potential of having an Rh positive baby.

That could be a sensitizing event. Where you can develop those, um, antibodies. So that's kind of the risk of amniocentesis. 

[00:44:24] Loren: Yeah. Thank you for that. That's really good to know. And I didn't even think that the stats were that dramatic. So they're crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I, I knew they were not great, but, uh, thank you for that.

Um, and you know, this again, begs the question, like, If you get this testing done, what are you prepared to do? Will you act upon it? Is it better for your peace of mind to Not no, because if you aren't going to act upon this result anyway, then why put that extra stress on you? 

[00:45:00] But again, it's something that you have to also talk about with your partner as well, and usually they're involved in the decision making process as far as that goes.

But, uh, yeah, I think Annie brings up some great points, uh, regarding this genetic testing, and that it's not all foolproof. And as I said before, even, you know, this is the same test that they tell you the sex of the baby. And my cousin thought she was having a boy. I've heard several stories of that not being accurate for the gender.

Yeah. Um, so thanks for that. I would love to move on to Rh testing, because this is also one of the most common questions I get too, and just to hear from your perspective, you know, it's another blood test, right? But it can include, uh, blood tests can include Rh testing, and I would love if you could break that down for us too, because Some women may not have to contend with this decision making at all, depending on their blood type, but others may be having to, depending on their blood type or their partner's blood type, or maybe they're even having to contend with this because it's just one of those things that the doctor wants to give you.

And it has, and it's not making any sense at all for you. Um, so yeah, could you share more about that? 

[00:46:15] Annie: Yes, so the RhoGAM injection, or if you're in another country, it's probably called anti D. They're the same thing. So, I am Rh positive, so I didn't have to face this choice myself, but I find the concept of RhoGram really interesting because it's really the only medication that is given for the sake of someone who is not presently there.

It is not given for the health of the mother or of the child she's carrying. It is given for the potential benefit of a potential future Rh positive baby. Thank you. So, the R. H. factor, you don't really have to think about it if you're R. H. positive, but there can be issues if you are an R. H. negative woman carrying an R.

1. positive. baby. But that is not a possibility if your partner is also Rh negative, too. Rh negative people can not make an Rh positive baby. So it's become one of those medications that is just like, Okay, we know it works. We know it's effective. We know it prevents this. So let's just give it to everybody who falls into this category.

But there's actually a lot of different factors that can raise your risk or determine that you have no risk at all of becoming sensitized. So your partner's blood type is one factor and I don't think they're routinely looking at the partner's blood type, but if you know or if you can just have your partner go give blood and find out what their blood type is, that could completely alleviate any need to even think about this because if you're Rh negative, you can't have an Rh positive baby.

It's that simple. But even if you are carrying an Rh positive baby, the likelihood of becoming sensitized is relatively low. Unfortunately, this is something they [00:48:00] kind of stopped looking at, like, decades ago. We don't have really clear cut evidence on. What the most common sensitizing events are, we can assume it's, you know, pregnancy and birth interventions, anything that could cause a little bit of blood from the placenta to go into mom's bloodstream, but they used to, I believe, just give it if there was some sort of physically traumatic event during pregnancy, you know, a car wreck or something like that, they could give it just in case within a few days of that event to prevent it.

The mom from becoming sensitized or if there was a potential sensitizing event during birth. They would give it within 72 hours of birth. Now, I believe they recommend to give it at one point during pregnancy, maybe in the third trimester and after birth, but, um, this is without knowing if there's any sensitizing event or if there's any risk factors.

So, that's just some things to take into account, but like I said, they kind of just said, okay, it works, which it does. It's very effective at preventing. Developing those antibodies, but it carries risk just like anything else. Not, you know, astronomical risk, but it's always there and it could be a completely needless intervention if you're trying to avoid medical interventions that you don't need.

So, yeah, if the father is Rh negative, it's not something you have to really think about. Also, if you're not having any future babies, obviously this can change and things do happen, but if you know for almost certain that this is going to be your last baby and your last pregnancy, the RhoGAM injection does not help your current baby.

It would be a benefit if you do have a sensitizing event and your future pregnancy is Rh positive. So there's a lot of ifs in there that determined whether it could have any benefit at all. 

[00:49:52] Loren: Thank you for covering that. I have come to a lot of the same conclusions. Um, and just for those that don't know, you  know, Rh is, is a protein that lives on your red blood cells.

And for example, I myself am a plus, so this is not something that I have to think about either. Um, That's my blood type. So anything, for example, just to like tie it into like, if you're trying to figure out, Oh, what, what is the, what does that mean? You know, just look at your blood type. If there's a plus there, you're good.

You don't have to worry about it. Um, but I think that the issue is a lot of. The conventional medical system doesn't even ask what the partner's blood type is too. Uh, and so, you know, we have, I have had so many, uh, couples or, you know, mothers from couples that are negative and their partners are negative coming to me saying I was offered it regardless and You know it they tried to push it on me or I took it and I didn't know and I reacted really poorly Because I think it's also important to know that 

[00:51:00] You can have a reaction it is somewhat similar to other injections in that it's, you know, kind of creating an immune response.

Um, and it's, I find it very interesting that they're trying to give it during pregnancy now as well as after, uh, when the standard procedure used to be just right after birth. Um, and we're the only country that does this. So now we're just like kind of injection happy. 

[00:51:29] Annie: Yeah. I keep kind of trying to find, um, the reason why it's routinely offered to RH negative moms during pregnancy when there is no clear sensitizing event that took place.

I can't figure it out. Um, and it's also worth noting that it is a blood product, which some people just on that grounds are going to be a little more skeptical of it. And it's also not like a blood transfusion where it's coming from one person. It's made from pooled blood. And what's kind of interesting about how they make it.

[00:52:00] Um, It has to come from our other Rh negative people who are given Rh positive blood so they make the antibodies That can then be given in the injection So it does contain, you know preservatives polysorbate 80 like you said the other injections it can elicit a similar response, but yeah, there's a lot of ifs and things to consider when it comes to ROGAM that are just not told to women at all because I know a lot of moms are told like it's for the safety of your baby you need it when really that's never true because it's not about that current pregnancy it's about the potential of a future one.

[00:52:40] Loren: Yep. Yep. It's about the next one. And, um, the, the concern around that too is, you know, also Ruse's disease, which has a range or spectrum of issues. It can be as, you know, I don't want to say benign, but as mild as jaundice to sometimes fetal death. So, I think that's important to know. It's trying to prevent this Ruse's disease, or at least in part, um, so that when your next baby is born, they don't have to experience this, or you don't have to go through this.

I think it's also important to look up what Ruse's disease is and, um, Kind of get informed on what you're comfortable with there, too. But thanks for breaking that down because I think that it's just one of these decisions that a lot of women are kind of spiral with. Um, and unfortunately, it's, it's a decision that a lot of women think they have to make, but it's not even a good fit for them because them and their partners are both negative.

And so I feel like I, Uh, you know, it's really important to be informed in anything that you're putting into your body. Um, and yeah, you might be able to, to find out that you don't even have to make the decision anyway. 

[00:54:00] So, um, moving on to other blood tests, what about iron levels? Um, you know, I feel like we get tested for that.

Uh, oftentimes at the beginning of pregnancy, at the beginning of the third trimester as well. And just wondering, you know, kind of what you'd like to share around that. 

[00:54:20] Annie: Yes. I opted to not have mine tested during pregnancy when they have like a little finger prick. I think it is close to your third trimester because I would not supplement isolated iron, which tends to be the recommendation, either supplements or infusions.

So, you know, better than anybody, you have Morley Robbins on the show, that there's just a lot of factors when it comes to how your body utilizes iron and it needs other cofactors to get where it needs to go. I was comfortable with how I had prepared for pregnancy and how I was treating my body during pregnancy that I was getting enough.

So yeah, it's another one of those things where it just depends. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to get an infusion with its own set of risks? Um, they say that there are a higher chance of things like postpartum hemorrhage if your iron is low. And while there may be a correlation, we know that iron doesn't operate on its own.

It doesn't regulate itself. So, if This isn't really what they like to do in the mainstream model, but to really get an idea of what is putting you more at risk, you'd have to look at a lot of more nutrients and see what's going on in your body to see why your clotting factors may not be what they should be.

[00:55:51] Loren: Yeah, yeah, I think that I would totally agree with that. Um, you know, iron is just one factor and it has many co factors and it could not be, it might not be the iron itself, but you might be missing copper or vitamin A or both. And to slap some iron supplementation on it, sometimes it'll work temporarily.

And you know, you'll see the boost, especially if you're testing earlier in the third trimester, you'll see that boost. But what happens usually is then it drops again and then like, Oh, it dropped again. What do I do? Like, and so almost like your 

[00:56:28] Annie: body's doing it on purpose or something. Yeah. And There's women who they take all these supplements to the point where they are just desperately constipated taking these iron supplements Which that's bad enough for some women in pregnancy without iron supplements and they can take them and feel absolutely horrible And then it's still not raised their levels enough.

So they move on to the infusions and it just exacerbates the problem. And I mean, constipation kind of looked at as like, Oh, well, it's not that big of a deal, but it kind of is. And especially when you're that pregnant, that is the last thing you need. It can make some women feel really awful in their third trimester.

[00:57:05] Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Constipation is not fun. And. you know, it could definitely be when looking at constipation, I usually ask what supplements are you taking? And, um, I think another thing too, is that, um, it's, it's well known that iron supplementation can cause lower iron, uh, in the body. You know, so it's, it's one of the possibilities and, um, typically it's due to a pathogenic infection or the body not having enough of the cofactors to feel like it can utilize iron properly.

So it sequesters it into the, you know, the tissues, um, because iron can be very inflammatory as well. Um, and so. And, uh, another thing too is that, uh, there is the risk of anaphylaxis with iron infusions. And I've had my fair share of women that have reached out to me saying, I got an iron infusion and I had anaphylaxis and almost died.

[00:58:00] Uh, well, so scary it is, or, you know, I sweat through my sheets and my sheets were stained red. 

[00:58:09] Annie: Mm hmm. I think that would freak me out if I was pregnant and I woke up with red sheets. Yeah. And I think Morley talks about too, um, how women with slightly lower iron levels have better pregnancy outcomes. I think he said that as well.

And I can't remember the whole reason behind it, but it's fascinating. Everything that is told to women about iron during pregnancy is just Part of it's backwards and then the rest of it just doesn't take root cause into account at all because low iron is not a root cause of dysfunction. 

[00:58:48] Loren: Yeah. Yeah.

It's usually a symptom and you're totally right. And, um, I think it's Dr. Stier that did, um, a study on all of his patients and found that it was, Hemoglobin levels between 5 that were the, yielded the healthiest babies, and you know, I think what we also have to understand is that iron levels will naturally drop in the third trimester due to many different things because of Estrogen increasing which naturally yields lower hemoglobin levels anyway, so if your estrogen is higher, which it is It's, you know, you're, it's peaking, uh, it's going to have, you're going to have lower hemoglobin levels, but you're also downloading so much to your baby in the third trimester.

It's more of a catabolic state, so you're just downloading tons of nutrients, micronutrients like copper and iron, um, but also tons of fat onto the baby. The baby grows exponentially in the third trimester, very, very, very fast. Um, and there's just like a very. Huge download and that will also just naturally decrease your iron levels, too.

So I think, you know, it does, it can make things scary because if you're trying to have a home birth, there are laws, 

[01:00:00] uh, in a lot of states that state, you know, you can't have your hemoglobin lower than 11, but I also find that some of the problem is it's not even that midwives are tracking this necessarily.

It's more of a compliance thing. They just want you to get the test done to see what it is. And if you're low, take some iron, but they're not actually retesting you to see if that worked. 

[01:00:26] Annie: Right. And this, these Laws governing midwifery, I mean, that number is for one arbitrary, but also it wasn't put in place by someone who understands nutrition and iron metabolism.

It's just, they have no business saying that a woman needs to have that blood level there to give birth at home. It's just ridiculous because that's, that's not put there by somebody who. understands physiology. It's just a number put there by, I guess, I don't know if it's the midwifery board or.

[01:01:03] Loren: It's, it varies from state to state, so I would think it has something to do with, like, more local legislation, um, not like a national, uh, A national group, but, um, that's a good question.

I should look into that. Um, but yeah, uh, you know, if you are dealing with this though, there's tons of other options and, um, I highly recommend checking out the episode with Morley Robbins. There's actually two episodes. Uh, so you can check that out. That's from season one, but thank you for that, Annie. I really appreciate you breaking that down for us.

One of the other tests that I love to talk about too, is glucose testing. And this is, you know, Another one that I get reached out to on social media about, like, I'm going for my glucose test. Is there any other option? This sounds gross. Or, you know, I failed my glucose test. What should I do? Uh, is there anything else we need to know here?

[01:01:59] Annie: So, this is the one that is talked about, like, it's very scary. Like, if you're going to get any test done, you've got to have the gestational diabetes testing done. And while there are risks and correlated negative outcomes with uncontrolled gestational diabetes, it bothers people when I say that pregnancy doesn't give you diabetes.

But while pregnancy may naturally be a slightly more insulin resistant state, We know that the diagnosis of gestational diabetes is heavily correlated with the diagnosis for actual diabetes later in life or pre diabetes. So, there is some blood sugar dysregulation and there are some women who live a very healthy lifestyle who still can end up with a gestational diabetes diagnosis.

But there is some kind of blood sugar dysregulation going on outside of pregnancy, I believe. If you're diagnosed with actual gestational diabetes, and that's where the problem lies, is that there's not a lot of consistency in how they're diagnosing it. So you could go to one hospital, and you will test one number below their threshold, and you don't have to do the three hour test, and you're not diagnosed with.

GDM and you go to a different hospital and you are and you're subjected to Another test and all these extra ultrasounds and possible induction just based on that number So there's not a lot of consistency there and there's also not consistency in what women are being told to do before the test so Some women are told to fast.

Some women are told not to fast, but they're not told specifically what they should eat. Some are told not to eat carbs before the test. Some are told that they should eat carbs before the test. So, that's going to have a huge impact on your blood sugar, as well as what time of day you have the test done, whether it's in the morning or the afternoon.

So, yeah, it's just not a perfect science, and I think that's the consistent thing among all of these tests, is they're talked about as though they're [01:04:00] foolproof, as though they can't be wrong, and that's just not the case. It's just not that simple. 

[01:04:06] Loren: Yeah, I agree. I think it's another scenario where it's like, what are you going to do with the results?

And what I find too is that there's a lot of inconsistency in terms of preparation. There's also the, the advice that you get afterwards. So if you are diagnosed with it, it's just like pretty horrible. 

[01:04:26] Annie: Especially lots of oatmeal, lots of isolated carbs that I see women being told to have after they are diagnosed with it.

And there is the option of tracking your own blood sugar at home, which Increasingly more providers are open to, and if you're going to test for it, that's the way to get the most clear picture of what your blood sugar looks like on a regular basis. You're probably not sitting at home on an empty stomach chugging 75 grams of isolated glucose.

You're probably not doing that very often. I would hope not. 

[01:05:00] So it's just this, of course, your body's going to have a huge response to. that. That's not normal. That's not what your blood sugar is usually doing on a day to day basis. So, people will vary in how they respond to that, but you're not having it with any protein, and that's a ton of glucose all at once.

So, it's just, yeah, not an accurate picture of what your day to day levels look like. And then there's other options, like some women will have a bunch of jelly beans, or a certain fruit juice, or there's something called the, um, fresh test that. These do, well, I don't know about jelly beans, but some of them do have better ingredients, but it's also, it's just, it's still a lot of sugar all at once.

And it's still not overall representative of how you're treating your body on a daily basis. Ideally. 

[01:05:49] Loren: Yeah, I agree. It's, it's simulating this very unrealistic, like scenario and maybe, maybe, maybe it's realistic for [01:06:00] those that eat the standard American diet. Maybe. Maybe. But most of us, especially during pregnancy, we kind of up our game nutritionally, too.

So usually that's not happening in real life. And 75 grams of glucose is a lot. 

[01:06:18] Annie: Yes. 

[01:06:18] Loren: But it's a great point. You know, I think, Knowing that the results, you know, kind of knowing what you're getting yourself into and what could happen, um, because depending on the results, you might be prescribed insulin to take.

And are you okay with that? Um, of course, depending on your provider, they may pursue more lifestyle based, uh, and nutrition based recommendations first. That's usually what they do. Uh, but those recommendations. are probably not going to be great either, especially if they're coming from the conventional model, because what advice are you being given?

It's usually the standard American diet. Um, so just know that you might have to look at other alternative things if you are pursuing this more conventional model of care. 

[01:07:00] Um, And the alternative side, you know, midwives will usually be okay with you taking a fresh test. They will usually also be okay with you doing a couple of days of continuous glucose monitoring so that you get an average of your blood sugar after meals.

Um, there's also another option too Might be provided depending on the midwife and that's eating a meal with 75 grams of carbs, but in this meal, you also get to have protein and fat, and you can vary the kinds of carbs that you're eating. So not just glucose, but fructose. So I think, you know. Knowing that there are other options, even if you're not offered these options and you still want to get this test done, you can advocate for yourself and hopefully the provider that you're working with will be amenable to that because they should be working with you, not against you.

And you know, if you're not comfortable taking the Glucola, it's, you should be offered other options, but you may also be faced with, this is how we do it here. If you don't like it. You know, too bad. So just know that too. It really depends. There's, there's so many variables like 

[01:08:20] Annie: Annie said. Yeah, there is with that.

And I see that a lot with this being the test where providers like put their foot down, like, no, it has to be this specific orange drink that you take in the office. Um, but I think some of that just comes from them not wanting to look at a bunch of different Values and having to take an average it's more work as opposed to just getting a thumbs up or a thumbs down as to Whether you are getting referred for the three hour test or not.

So it's more work on their end. 

[01:08:49] Loren: Right, right um Another thing too I do want to mention, um, is knowing that if you do decide to opt into this and you are looking for a more alternative kind of birth, so like home birth or, um, birth center, if you do fail this test, typically they'll give you a couple chances to, if they're nice, they'll give you a couple chances to retake it.

So. Do you want to retake it? But if you can't continue to fail, you may be labeled as high risk because now you have gestational diabetes, quote unquote, and, um, that home birth that you have been wanting and preparing for might be taken off the table. So. That's another thing to keep in mind that your birth options, depending on the results of this could change quite a bit and anything high risk usually has to be in a hospital.

So just pointing that out too. 

[01:09:46] Annie: Yeah. Um, regarding gestational diabetes and other testing when moms want to decline it, a lot of the times. What they're met with is okay, then we have to treat you as though you're positive and I mean [01:10:00] as Moms, we've got to push back against this. We have got to switch providers when this happens because that is always misdiagnosis I mean You are being knowingly mistreated if they're going to treat you as though you're positive for a condition that it wasn't tested especially when With these conditions, it's more likely that you don't have it, whether it's gestational diabetes, GBS testing, whatever it is.

More, it's more likely that you don't, but you're still treated as though you're positive if you decline the test, and that's not informed consent. That's a threat. So then you're met with all these other interventions, which I believe you always have the choice to decline those as well, but then you might be in a more hostile relationship with your care provider.

If they're going to insist on treating you as though you have something that you have not been diagnosed with. So, um, it's just a really unfair situations that, um, situation that a lot of moms are placed in when that's the response they get. 

[01:10:55] Loren: Yeah, I think that's really important too. Thank you for bringing that up because that's abuse and that's mistreatment.

Yep. So. As soon as that starts to happen, if it hasn't before, that's probably your sign to look for another provider. Yes. Especially one that will more so respect your wishes. And You know, align with your care and not try to make you follow what they want, but work with you to help you achieve your goals.

So thank you for that. And speaking of group B strep testing, that's another one I would love to talk to you about. So this is like the Another one that is just for some reason, just like women can spiral, like, should I get it done? Should I get, should I not get it done? 

[01:11:43] Loren: Uh, you know, it's, it can be a lot of women come to me with a lot of fear behind it.

Um, so I'd love if you could share your perspective on this. 

[01:11:51] Annie: Yeah, so, like most tests, there's nothing wrong with having the information if you want to get the test done. Um, you just have to know that group B strep is transient. It could not be there by the time you give birth, if it's positive, whenever you do get tested at 36 weeks or whatever it is.

And also, I'm seeing increasingly more mothers getting tested for group B strep in their first trimester, which is ridiculous. That, I mean, That's months and months apart and has nothing to do with what your status will be When you give birth and I recently spoke to a mom who was tested in her first trimester and was positive And was asked if she could retest closer to labor, which makes perfect sense But she was told yes you can But we're still going to go off that first result.

That was months farther away from her going into labor It's just I don't know where they say that their things are evidence based And I don't know where that evidence comes from because that doesn't make any sense but if A mom is positive when she goes into labor, which could be hard to know unless you're rapid testing on the spot um, the chance the chance of baby becoming colonized with group B strep is between one and two percent and There are different risk factors that increase those chances.

I believe cervical checks play a big role, um, which they often insist on in a medical environment. But I find that harmful whenever a mom is known to be group B strep positive, and they insist on doing all these cervical checks. You are definitely increasing bacteria unnecessarily. That's entering the birth canal.

So, there's that, um. There are different risk factors like if mom has a fever during labor, and um, just things that can increase the chance of baby having group B strep disease. So if four hours worth of antibiotics are given before baby is born, that risk goes down to about 0. 2 to 0. 3%, but this is often framed as, oh, the chance of baby contracting it goes down by 80%, which the difference between 0, 2 and 1%.

[01:14:00] You can say that it's 80%, but that's what the absolute risk is. So the way it's framed as far as how the risk is presented to the mom is really important. So out of that one to 2 percent of babies who do contract it, it can be deadly for between six and 7 percent of those babies. So vernix that baby is born with is protective against group B strep.

And what do they do? They wipe baby down as soon as possible, whenever they're born. So there's just. some things that are thought of as benign and no big deal that take place in a lot of hospital settings that actually are a big deal. Um, if you're worried about group heat strep, like cervical checks and like cleaning baby immediately after birth.

[01:14:42] Loren: Yeah. I think it's not quite as simple as like positive or negative. I think there's a lot more to the picture like you're, you're saying, and, um, you know, it's, it's one of those things, again, that you have to contend with if you do find out that you are, what are you going to do about it? 

[01:15:00] Because usually you're presented with, uh, an IV antibiotic during labor, that's usually the solution, um, and so, are you comfortable with that, knowing that, During birth, you are passing down your microbiome to your baby and how it sets their microbiome up for the rest of their life.

And You know, antibiotics could really diminish that and alter that microbiome. Um, we are meant to have group B strep, just not quite as high as, uh, you know, I think this is a threshold that they test for. So it's, it is a naturally occurring, a microbe that we have. Uh, it's just, is it in the right place too?

Because typically what I see as well, um, I think personal hygiene plays a role too. Uh, as well as, you know, what your, how much interference you're actually having within the birth canal. 

[01:16:00] Like you mentioned too, cervical checks. Um, you know, are you right, wiping the right way? Uh, that's a huge thing. Somehow this, this bacteria that's supposed to be You know, more so in the anal area is now in the vaginal area, um, in a more populous number.

And so why is that happening? You know? And so just looking at naturally hygiene comes to mind first thing. And are we wiping in the right way? Are we, you know, wearing clothes for too long? Are we wearing the right kind of underwear? Um, are we washing our hands before we? You know, touch anything down there.

What kinds of other interventions are we agreeing to in a hospital setting? This is very common for it, you know, bacteria to get passed from one patient to another. That happens a lot more than people think. And so, um, you know, making sure that whoever's working on you has clean hands is really important.

And then gut health is also super important. Your gut is very close to your heart. Uh, reproductive organs and can influence your, uh, vaginal microbiome quite a bit. So is it more of a gut issue? Are you pooping every day? You know, what are you eating? Um, so there's so many things to think about, but I think it's just another one of those things that you also have to kind of reconcile.

Okay. If I do find out that I am positive, what are my next steps? Would I be comfortable with all the options that I have? And if you're not comfortable. with taking antibiotics during labor, then you know your answer. Or, if the thought of, um, losing your baby is, is, based on that small percentage, is the, the issue, then, and that's what matters the most, then, you know, also consider that.

But there are also other natural alternatives, too, to addressing group B strep. So it's not like you, 

 [01:18:00] You don't have to get the antibiotics, but depending on your provider, you might be influenced or given only a couple options. It's another one of those things where, you know, depending on the care and setting you're in, you might have one option or you might have, you know, if you're working with a midwife, she might offer herbal options or other, other options that you can, uh, utilize to address the group B strep.

So, uh, again, it's kind of a more complex. Decision then then you might think 

[01:18:32] Annie: yes, it's not so black and white. And another thing to take into account is. If your provider's plan is, you know, you're positive, so automatically we want to give you antibiotics. If you're wanting. If you are having an unmedicated or low intervention birth, you have to remember they're going to want you there as early as labor, as early in labor as possible.

Because they want to give you antibiotics for four hours, multiple rounds of them. So you need to take that into account as well because the earlier you are there in labor, the more time there is for intervention, the more likely you are to hear, oh, you're not progressing fast enough, things like that. So you have to take your intentions for your birth into consideration as well, when you think about how you want to handle the group B strep situation.

And if you want to have the information, just so you know that it's a possibility or to try and treat it and reverse your status before giving birth. That's completely fine. Um, and you can always take the expectant management approach if you know that it is present and just keep an eye on baby and obviously you would get the medical attention if any symptoms arose.

[01:19:41] Loren: That's very well said. Thanks for bringing that up. All right, Annie, this has been a really amazing conversation and I hope that the audience has, I'm sure they have because these are just so many of the questions that I get all the time. And I just so appreciate you sharing your perspective, your well informed perspective too.

And so thank you for being here. I would like to ask you. What's one thing, you know, just to close out the show with what's one thing that you would like to share with the audience that they can start doing today to unlock the innate wisdom of their bodies, because this podcast is fittingly called the innate wisdom podcast.

And I'm sure that you've all, well, you have already shared so much that you can do. Um, but if you have any other tips, I'd love to hear them. 

[01:20:31] Annie: I think. It can be really helpful to form a habit of allowing yourself a moment to pause when you're faced with a decision or with a choice, because especially if you grew up being kind of a people pleaser, which a lot of us women are, um, you probably don't like conflict and you probably are used to giving the person in front of you what they want to hear as quickly as possible to avoid that conflict.

But if you have been suppressing the language of your body for a long time, you're probably not giving yourself the time to hear it because if you give yourself a moment, you might hear, Oh, I'm unsure about this. I'm not comfortable with this. Or maybe absolutely. This is a full body. Yes. But you need to allow yourself that moment to listen to your gut.

And there's very rarely any harm in saying, let me think about that for a minute. Or for a few days. Um, but just allowing yourself that pause, um, shows self respect and helps build self trust so you can start listening to that language of your body again. 

[01:21:32] Loren: I think that's so beautiful. Thank you so much.

And, uh, what a great reminder because, yeah, especially during pregnancy, we might feel like we have to make these decisions very rapidly, but giving yourself that time to really think about things and to feel how your body's responding to The question being asked and to follow that intuition can make a world of a difference and will be even more important once your baby's [01:22:00] here and you have to make decisions on their behalf, and so thank you for that.

That's, I couldn't have said it better. 

[01:22:07] Annie: Yes, your intuition is a muscle and preconception of pregnancy is a great time to practice. Boundary setting and exercising those mama bear instincts. Cause there will be times after, you know, your baby's here that you have to defend them and set boundaries in ways that make other people uncomfortable.

So it's best to become comfortable with that before baby arrives. Amazing. 

[01:22:30] Loren: Absolutely. Okay, Annie. how can people find you and support you? 

[01:22:36] Annie: The easiest way to find me is on my Instagram at mom. mindfully. Um, that's where I'm most accessible and I'm usually talking about things like this. 

[01:22:45] Loren: Thank you so much.

Yes, absolutely. Go follow her. If you don't already, I love your page and I'm always, yeah, I always appreciate everything that you share. So thanks so much for, Everything that you do for mothers out there and thank you for being here today, Annie. 

[01:23:04] Annie: Thank you, Lauren. You've inspired me so much and I'm so honored to be here.

[01:23:06] Loren: Thank you. Thank you. Likewise.

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