Innate Wisdom Podcast

What It's About:

Join Loren Sofia, Functional Fertility Coach and owner of Innate Fertility, and Therese Dansby, a mom of three, nurse, and International Board Certified Lactation Consultant, as they debunk breastfeeding myths and share what you should really know about breastmilk and breastfeeding.

In this episode, you’ll learn about:

-The benefits of breastfeeding
-The amazing ways your breastmilk can change to support your baby
-What influences how much breast milk you produce
-How your partner can support your breastfeeding journey
-How to navigate for breastfeeding success, even if you’re working full-time
-Common challenges for breastfeeding mothers
-How you can support YOUR body while breastfeeding
-How breastfeeding changes as your baby gets older
-What to expect with the return of your cycle while breastfeeding
-The truth about using breastfeeding as birth control
-The new standard breastfeeding recommendations
-If breast is really best (and how much!)
-Tongue ties & narrow jaws: The chicken or the egg?
-How breastfeeding & latching are vital signs for you & your baby
-Alternatives to breastfeeding, including donor milk, formula, homemade formula, ranked from best to worst

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Loren: Welcome to the Innate Wisdom Podcast. I'm your host, Loren Sofia, Functional Fertility Coach and owner of Innate Fertility, and I'm honored to guide you through each episode, where we'll cover not just fertility, but how to rediscover the innate wisdom of your body, restore your connection with your physiology, bioenergetics and metabolism, and get back in touch with Mother Nature and ancestral traditions.

Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Innate Wisdom Podcast. On today's show, I'm so excited to invite mom of three, nurse, and International Board Certified Lactation Consultant, Therese Danby, to help me debunk breastfeeding myths and tell you what you really need to know about breast milk and breastfeeding.

There's so much to unpack in this episode. That said, if you are currently breastfeeding or are pregnant and thinking about breastfeeding, I do want to share a recent study that concluded that women who have partners that encourage breastfeeding are more likely to continue to breastfeed at eight weeks postpartum.

A lot of women take on breastfeeding all on their own, but as I've seen in my own practice and real life, your partner's support matters just as much to your success if breastfeeding is your goal. So I encourage you to share this episode with them or to listen to this episode together. You both won't want to miss this conversation where we cover things like how to support your body while breastfeeding, breastfeeding recommendations, various breast milk alternatives, and so much more.

[00:01:40] Loren: Welcome to the show, Therese. I'm so excited to have you. Welcome to the innate wisdom podcast. 

[00:01:41] Therese: Thanks, Loren.

[00:01:42] Loren: I'm so excited that you're here. I love the work that you do. And I would actually love to start out by asking you so you can tell the audience, what is your story and what led you to doing the work that you do today?

[00:01:53] Therese: Sure. So I'm Therese. I am a mom of three. I'm a lactation [00:02:00] consultant. And I started my career as a NICU nurse in the neonatal intensive care unit and just loved taking care of tiny babies, um, until I had my own baby. And then I went back to work and just, it wasn't the same. It wasn't a magical job anymore.

It was a lot more personal and my emotions got into it. And I was like, Having a baby at home and taking care of sick babies was too much for me. And so I had always been interested in what we call the feeding team and a lot of bigger NICUs. They have like a speech therapist and an occupational therapist and a lactation consultant that kind of go around and.

Work on the baby's early feeding skills or their feeding skills. And I always thought someday I will, you know, first I was like, I'll go back to school and become an OT. And then I realized like I could become a lactation consultant without going back to grad school. But it is a lot of work still.

 

[00:03:00] It's like a thousand hours of direct feeding work with moms and babies.

And then 90 plus hours of. Didactic, lactation specific learning, classroom hours, and it also requires like a background of a certain number of science classes at the college level, but I already had those because of my nursing degree. So I still thought, you know, someday, someday, and then a job opening at my hospital allowed me to kind of move from the NICU to the lactation department.

And I actually got my training while getting paid. And then I took my board exam in 2016. And I mean, I haven't looked back. It's definitely, it just combines all of the things that I love in one role.

[00:03:42] Loren: Well, your passion definitely shines through your work and the way you show up and it's such an amazing service that you're providing for women because I feel like half the battle is just being able to learn from somebody who can show you what to do and show you the ropes because it's not quite as common as it used to be or socially acceptable necessarily.

And so I feel like having a resource like you just makes it. the journey of breastfeeding, which can be really challenging in general for a lot of women, just that much easier and smoother and, you know, supported and not feeling like you're alone, kind of suffering alone, trying to figure this out on your own, because, you know, there are a lot of resources like you out there.

[00:04:25] Therese: So, yeah, I mean, you're right. We are kind of two or three generations removed from breastfeeding being a cultural norm because kind of commercial formula really took off in the 1850s. So we don't see women breastfeeding the way that we used to, and we don't have immediate family help like we used to, so it definitely plays a role.

[00:04:46] Loren: Yeah, we'll definitely be touching on that too. Yes. So you've rooted your career in breastfeeding as of the huge switch and never looked back. So obviously, again, it's something that you're very obviously passionate about. Can you share more about the benefits in general of breastfeeding? Because it's not just this thing that we do, there are reasons we do it.

[00:05:07] Therese: Yeah. So breast milk is the biological norm for human babies, right? Human milk for human babies. But I said this on a podcast once and kind of offended some people because there's so many emotions tied up in every motherhood decision. And so I just, Not anti formula. We'll talk about formula later.

There's a time and a place for supplementation. But, without any judgments attached, human milk is for human babies. So, it's not even that breastfeeding has benefits, so Metro's formula has deficits. And so, it's just interesting the way we even talk about it as a society. Like, breastfeeding is this extra.

Good thing that we can do instead of just kind of like the baseline thing that we were kind of created to do so I'm not anti supplementation at all.

[00:06:00] I think that people who know me or have worked with me one on one understand that, but the social media world. So breast milk. We'll talk about it in terms of benefits.

So breast milk is interesting because it's a living tissue and we'll talk about that a little bit more later. So first of all, human milk is unique to humans because cow's milk, for example, is really high in protein because cows have to grow really fast. Like they go from baby weight to adult weight in two years and protein helps them do that, grow all that muscle.

Now human babies Are essentially born prematurely right so that our heads can actually fit through an upright bipedal two legged birth canal. And so the human brain it doubles in that first year and then it's 80 percent of its adult size by age three. So the human brain is growing super rapidly. So human milk is actually the highest in lactose or milk sugar because that's what grows the brain and it's lower in protein because our bodies don't need to grow as fast.

[00:07:00] babies double their birth weight in the first four to six months and then they triple their birth weight in a year and then like proportionally that growth slows and slows and slows until like 15 or 18 years when we have reached our adult weight so it's just totally different from the get go but human milk is also so specific to The baby, and I think that probably actually just leads into your next question, but breast milk also all the things that you hear like it reduces the risk of ear infections.

It reduces the risk of GI infections. It reduces the risk of respiratory infections and the benefits don't actually end when you Breastfeeding, depending on the specific virus that you're looking at, some of these benefits can extend for four months, six months or years after breastfeeding, as long as you breastfed for even four months.

So it's what our immune system was designed to be built off of and like calibrated to. 

[00:08:03] Loren: That is so interesting. Yeah. I always find that super, super interesting. So just to break it down for the audience, you're saying that breast milk helps play a role in the sort of. microbiome development of baby and also the building of the immune system, which makes sense because if you know about the microbiome, it's a huge foundational piece of the immune system.

It contains 70 to 80 percent of the immune system. And so that acts as the foundation of your baby's immune system and helps fight off viruses. It can come in contact with, even if you've stopped breastfeeding. And I think that's so interesting. There's two things that I want to mention. So, You're also saying that, and this, I think the formal term is exo gestational.

So, humans finish growing or gestating outside of the womb. And so, that's also why, at least from what I've learned as well, is why skin to skin is so important, is why that Touch and the holding of your baby is so important for many months after they're out of the womb because they're not actually done Growing and they need that human contact to regulate themselves Breast milk plays a huge role in that too as you start to build the immune system But I guess this would also extend to so for example if the baby catches a cold or something Or mom, I guess, might be sick. She could impart those antibodies onto the baby.

[00:09:33] Therese: Yeah, usually within six hours, the mom's breast milk will be making antibodies towards the antigen that the baby has been exposed to. And so, it's really cool.

[00:09:40] Loren: I always find that so amazing.

[00:09:49] Therese: Yes, it is cool.

[00:09:51] Loren: Especially coming off the heat of, apparently, that's picking back up.

[00:09:54] Therese: Cool. I know. All the viruses. Yeah, so I will commonly and, and you know, my local Facebook breastfeeding group, people are like, can I still breastfeed while I have the flu or while I have the C word or while I have food poisoning? And I'm always like, yes, yes, yes, almost always, unless you have HIV or like.

Tuberculosis or there's one other illness, but I'm like, almost always you want to keep breastfeeding because you're reducing the baby's severity and duration of illness. Your immune system is doing some of the work for them because all of us, we get exposed to an antigen and then we create antibodies and you're helping the baby skip some of that stuff.

You're like, here's some antibodies right now till you make your own. The other thing, in terms of immune support, is that colostrum, which is that early form of milk, for lack of a better word, it's actually an entirely different substance. It's gel like, and it's usually thick, yellow.

[00:10:56] Loren: Just to interject, I just started drinking colostrum

.[00:11:00] Therese: Oh gosh, so you know what colostrum is, yes. Not everybody leaks. So yeah, colostrum, your body is capable of making it after about 20 weeks of pregnancy. So there you go. And some women leak and some women don't, but it's what the baby gets first. And it really doesn't even have that much nutrition in it per se.

Its primary role is actually immunological. So It's really high in IGA, which lines, it coats the baby's intestines right away, just to help other things from getting through and getting into their system. So, colostrum's primary role is immunological. 

[00:11:37] Loren: Yeah, and that's actually one of the things I love to use if somebody has low Iga on a GI Map.

[00:11:44] Therese: Yes. Yeah, that's so funny. I was just about to order some colostrum for the first time myself actually. So it is funny. It's so funny. Actually, I am trying to figure out how to submit a proposal to talk at the West, a price conference, because everybody's talking about raw milk, and I'm like, listen, breast milk is the original raw milk.

I'm not saying for adults, but I'm saying like. Let's talk about how cool breast milk is because all the cool stuff that you're talking about raw milk applies to breast milk and more because it's species specific.

[00:12:18] Loren: That is exactly right. All the benefits of raw milk you get in breast milk and the benefits of colostrum you get in the colostrum you make too.

[00:12:27] Therese: I couldn't agree more. Yeah, it's all been commercialized on the cow end, you know.

[00:12:33] Loren: right, but you can get it for free. Technically, I mean, you know. We're not saying like, go feed your family your breast milk, but it's definitely a lot cheaper that way too.

[00:12:46] Therese: So you haven't had like, um, raw colostrum from a cow?

We don't have super great raw milk access here. And. My family has some histamine stuff going on, so we actually do better with like Kelowna dairy products. They're still like organic grass fed, non homogenized, but they're not raw. They're just like low heat pasteurized. But none of the farms around here, to my knowledge, sell colostrum, even if I wanted to.

So I was thinking about the powdered stuff.

[00:13:15] Loren: The powdered stuff is great. It works really well. It only comes up once or twice a year, where my local farmer's like, Hey, we have extra colostrum. Does anyone want? And it's just like, very limited amount. And it's like a pint. Once or twice a year. And I'm always like, I want it!

Please! I'll take it! It's really like liquid gold. It's so thick and rich and it's sweet and salty at the same time and

[00:13:44] Therese: I just feel amazing after drinking it. That's super interesting because colostrum and weaning milk are saltier and humans have more sodium in them than like full mature breast milk.

So yeah, I'm like, why are we always talking about cow's milk? Let's nerd out about human milk a little bit more. Well, I love it.

[00:14:02] Loren: That's what we're here to do. And I hope that the, uh, Weston A. Price Foundation gives your proposal of a review. Well, on that note too, what are some of the challenges, I guess, because breast milk can be an amazing food, obviously, but as a new mother, there are definitely some challenges that can come with breastfeeding.

And I'd love if you could cover some of these really common ones and why they might pose challenges and possibly what they might be able

[00:14:29] Therese: to do about it. I think the first one is kind of like we touched on is that we don't have that societal support. We have that absence of the normal exposure and then filling the gap is social media with like weirdly specific posts about cholesterol harvesting, which you guys, 99 percent of you do not need to harvest your cholesterol.

Okay. And it just gives you more things to worry about. And then it kind of puts moms in a role, which. It can be empowering, but it can also be crazy making. There's a really fine line of being like, I'm in charge of knowing if my baby has a tongue tie or if I need to take them here or there or everywhere.

And it's like hire a lactation professional so that they can help guide you. Because early on in my career, like tongue ties were the latest thing in the Midwest, and everybody was just like self referring to a dentist. And then they were coming to see me three or four months later when breastfeeding didn't actually improve after a revision.

And I'm like, that's just not the order that it works best in. And same with body work too. It's like, body work is fantastic. By all means, have a provider in mind, take your baby. But like, It doesn't really address breastfeeding problems for most people alone. There's always more than one thing going on.

So Most moms who call me are calling because breastfeeding hurts or because baby's not gaining weight appropriately or because there's some sort of issue or perceived issue with too little or too much milk.

[00:16:00] So those are kind of the, the big categories, but absolutely once we do have that full assessment and get a full history, it's like ties can be an issue, food allergies can be an issue.

Oral motor dysfunction can be an issue and so many of these things are related and it's hard to just Ask a question on facebook. What do you do for a gassy baby? It's like I have 20 more questions to ask you before I can answer that in a way that actually is going to serve you so I think just challenges that new mothers face.

I think a big one is that breast milk is natural, but it doesn't come Or breastfeeding is natural, but it doesn't come naturally to a lot of people and most women start off breastfeeding. You can actually look if you google breastfeeding report cards, you can see in your state how many women start breastfeeding and how many women are actually breastfeeding at a year without supplementation.

That's not including food because you shouldn't introduce food before then. In most states, it's something like 80 percent of women start breastfeeding and like 20 something percent are still breastfeeding at a year. I mean, that's huge. So it's like, clearly women are wanting to do this. And clearly there's a huge gap in access to help, access to appropriate information, peer support, societal support.

There's a big gap there where women aren't actually getting to do what they. set out to do. So there's kind of an infinite number of things at play there and it's not hard for everybody, but a lot of people are kind of surprised at the amount of work that it takes.

[00:17:34] Loren: Yeah, definitely. It can be really tough, especially if you're dealing with latch issues or just aversion to the nipple for some reason or food allergies can be really, really tough.

So it's not like there's any lack of issues that you could possibly experience, but that's when professionals like you come into play to make that easier.

[00:18:00] And creating a community that really supports you, I think, is also really important, especially your partner. I feel like it could be easier to, sort of, if you have a goal of breastfeeding, but you and your partner maybe are not on the same page or they're not ready to support your goal in the way that you need them to.

Because it also requires a lot from them as well, because you don't necessarily have that village. You're going to need to lean on the people immediately next to you more. And so, having that support from your partner, okay, we're going to do this together, versus like, it's just you doing it, I think is also really important and something that I've seen come up with my clientele as well.

There's so many challenges, but it's so beautiful when you can achieve it.

[00:18:50] Therese: And I think it is a really beautiful gift. Yeah, and you hear the term matrescent kind of like that birth of a mother and the becoming of a mother and there's a formal term called maternal role attainment and the way that you attain those is by like going through hard things and overcoming them and making decisions and choosing a path and sticking with it.

And I mean, it's like weight training, right? Like this is how we get stronger. And this is how we get stronger as And I'm not saying it has to be through breastfeeding because you're going to have a lifetime's worth of just normal life challenges with raising kids. But that is one way in which moms, you know, they have a struggle, they seek out help, they get support and they overcome it.

And then it's like, let's celebrate. And we live in a society that's like, well, you can't celebrate because then it makes the other moms feel bad. And I would love to change that. Cause I'm like, no, but. Let's celebrate, you know, and not make it personal against anyone else, but like celebrate that mom who wants to celebrate because she did work hard for it usually.

[00:19:57] Loren: Yeah, I think that's beautiful. And I think that's really well said, you know, I think more and more, I see the habit of like diminishing our own experiences in order to like, Maybe not hurt other people's feelings because they're triggered and I have a Somebody in my close friend group who is a trauma support specialist and she would consider that very dysregulated behavior If somebody is imparting their emotions onto you and you're responsible for regulating their emotions I think we have taken that responsibility to regulate other people's emotions a little too much a little far 

[00:20:35] Loren: And I think something like this, something as beautiful as this, something as Huge is this.

It's part of life. We should be able to celebrate. And that's just no judgment on what anyone else chooses to. If you want to celebrate your way, what you're doing, that's also fine and great

[00:20:50] Therese: Yeah. Cause saying I breastfed till two is not saying you should breastfeed till two or you should have tried harder.

You know, it's just saying I met my goal, you know? So, and I think that is really important about partner support too. I often really encourage people to get. Uh, prenatal education with their partner because they might be supportive, but they have no idea just like you have no idea what it's going to entail to feed your baby.

And a lot of times dads are problem solvers and they want to help. I know the first time my husband was like, well, why don't you just let me like feed him formula and you can sleep or things that. He was trying to problem solve, but we didn't do prenatal education together. And that was a mistake on my end because I was a NICU nurse and I took care of babies and I was a breastfeeding educator at the time.

So he was just like, whatever you want, you know, I trust you, which sounds good on paper, but in reality, and we would both say this now, I mean, my oldest is nine, so like we've had time to. Learn from our mistakes a little bit, but we will both look back and say, like, we should have done breastfeeding education together.

[00:22:00] So that a, so that I just had a moment to vocalize why it was important to me. Cause also I think my husband was like, kind of like any of us who maybe have husbands who are not as crunchy as we are. They're like, okay, but really, is it that important? Like, why are you making life harder for yourself? And I think it's important for you to know why you actually want to breastfeed because That's a legitimate question, and I think it's important for you to vocalize it to your partner, too, so they know why it's important, and then they have tools to support you in that.

[00:22:31] Loren: I totally agree. That is very well said. I think one of the things that I thought of Just now is in talking about the support. A lot of women today are in the workforce, and I feel like that could also be part of the reason why there's been such a decline in breastfeeding just naturally. But what would you say to somebody who really wants to breastfeed and is working full time? Is it feasible? 

[00:22:59] Loren: I know many women have tried and they have, at least in my immediate direct life, they usually end up stopping because it's too stressful to pump during work and meetings and all that stuff. But I would love to hear your take on it, especially from your extensive experience.

[00:23:13] Therese: Yeah, and I did go back to work at the hospital after my first two, and so I didn't go back 40 hours a week, but it was enough to understand like pumping is a lot of work, and I think it makes the early breastfeeding experience that much more important.

So the amount of milk that the baby removes in the first two weeks kind of programs your supply for the rest of your breastfeeding experience. So it is so important to have early Frequent, efficient milk removal, and if you don't, perhaps you can coast by on that. That was kind of how my first was. He was not transferring milk efficiently, and I didn't really catch on to it till like four weeks.

And he was pretty slow to gain weight, and but he was like, peeing and pooping just enough, you know?

[00:24:00] And so this is why prenatal education is important, because it's like, what is a red flag, and what is Not. And it's why it's important for your partner too, because your brain is not working the same way postpartum, you know, I could have looked at a client and said like, Well, yeah, you need help with that.

But when it was my own baby, and I'm alone in the middle of the night, I'm like, I don't understand why he's so grumpy, you know, it's like, well, he's not getting enough milk. If your milk supply is not really optimized on your maternity leave, your baby might be okay when you're at home with them. But then you go to work and you're pumping and you're like, um, barely getting enough.

And so taking a full 12 week or longer maternity leave is important and getting the very initial breastfeeding off to a good start is important. It's absolutely possible. I know people like ER doctors, people who travel for work for sales every week. I mean, you can make it work, but again, that comes back to knowing why is this important to me and how important is it?

Because also Mixed feeding is a thing.

[00:25:00] It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I've had moms who said, in hindsight, I wish that I had breastfed during maternity leave and then just slowly weaned over to formula because they're like, it would have been better than nothing. I didn't want to pump at work, but that didn't mean that my baby Needed formula from day one.

So there's a lot of creative thinking and ways to go about it. So if someone's anxious about their specific job, like they're not going to have enough time or their work environment is not really conducive to taking regular pumping breaks, then a prenatal consult is a really good idea. to talk about really tangible ways to set up your work environment before the baby even arrives.

So that when you go back to work, the work has already been done in essence. So yes, it is possible, but it's a lot of work to pump and you need to make sure that you have an appropriate pump. Don't go with whatever an influencer is selling. There are just a few workhorse pumps that most first time moms need to start with.

Then you need to make sure that flange size fits right. Totally possible, but it requires a little bit more work up front, ideally prenatally before the baby's there.

[00:26:09] Loren: Yeah so planning, getting clear on your goals, your boundaries too, and you know, being flexible within those goals as well. And knowing that it's not an all or nothing thing.

I think that's really important what you said, because I feel like a lot of women See breastfeeding as this really daunting thing and like, oh my god, I'm gonna have to do it. Give it my all and if I don't do it for this amount of time, I'm a complete failure and like, no, there's so much flexibility and you can still see so much benefit even if you don't breastfeed for two years or something like that

[00:26:44] Therese: Yeah. And the evidence is pretty clear that any breast milk is better than no breast milk. So, you know, if you feed them colostrum for one week, like there are benefits to that and a good lactation consultant should help you with combo feeding as well. You don't have to be like, Oh, I'm afraid to ask them this question.

I've had people who like hate the evening feedings because they're so touched out and overstimulated. And they've chosen to give a bottle of formula because I don't even want to pump. They're like, I just want to have like an evening where I don't have to hold the baby. And that sounds bad, but this is the situation that some people are in.

And I'm like, by all means, have somebody else give that baby a bottle and your supply will regulate accordingly. And you can still breastfeed them the rest of the time. Again, work with a consultant because. Your supply isn't just totally willy nilly. You don't want to switch to formula all at once or just assume that your supply is always going to regulate with whatever you decide to do.

But, yeah, absolutely, there's tons of wiggle room. Yeah, 

[00:27:44] Loren: and I think you make another great point because it's not just about benefits. And like health, it's about mental health benefits too. Like you have to weigh and incorporate that into your approach. And that's going to be huge. And I feel like women are so hard on themselves because they really need that mental break, but they feel so guilty for wanting it or asking for it.

And I think that's. also part of the reason why they may not breastfeed for as long as they originally intended to. And so you have to figure out a way that's going to support the health of you and your baby, but also your mental health as the primary caregiver feeding the baby. So that's really important and not to just like brush it off the table.

That's a key factor to consider on your breastfeeding journey. 

[00:28:33] Therese: And I think a lot of times you need to be asking the mom what she wants because our society is often like, Oh, well, it's okay to bottle feed, which is true. But I have to ask a mom, what makes you feel more anxious in this moment? The thought of quitting or the thought of continuing.

And moms will have very different answers. Some of them are like, I am so done, but X, Y, Z person in my life wants me to keep going, you know? And I'm like, well, we need to talk about that. Or they're like, this is so hard, but I want this to work so bad. I'm willing to do like every single thing to make it work.

And I'm like, we will do that. But if that mom who's really over it, I'm not going to throw every single trick in the book at her, because it's going to overwhelm her even more, you know? So I think we have to ask. Where mom even is on that spectrum, because again, there are so many emotions and guilt and just expectations on all sides of the spectrum tied up in that.

[00:29:27] Loren: Yeah, there's already like a huge hormonal shift taking place postpartum. Like, this is like a new version of you that you're contending with and like, so much going on. So definitely, I think it's easy to beat ourselves up. But It's totally human to have these thoughts and to want to adjust or feel like you have to adjust and it's okay.

[00:29:51] Therese: Yeah, most lactation consultants will say don't quit on your hardest day. Give yourself 24 more hours. But it is important to know kind of what you're wanting long term. Because I know in the midst of my breastfeeding struggles, the thought of like not doing it made me so sad. And I was like, Okay, that means I can push through and try the next thing.

And depends for everybody. And I'm always telling clients there's no one right way to breastfeed. I think too, we see if I can't attachment parent and co sleep and do skin to skin all the time and be with my baby 24 seven, then I guess I can't breastfeed. And that's not true either. A lot of it depends on the baby's personality, the mom's personality, your work situation, home situation.

There's not one right way to do it by any means.

[00:30:34] Loren: I think that's beautifully said. Well, next question, if you don't mind. What about supporting your body as you breastfeed? Do you have any tips or advice for mothers going through it right now, in terms of like, what do you really need? We talked a little bit about the mental side of things, a little bit about the community support, but what else are we not thinking of, or haven't we touched on, when it comes to breastfeeding successfully?

[00:31:00] Therese: Yeah, I think we can break it down into a few different phases. So we kind of have the immediate postpartum period, and I'll talk about each of these, and then we have like kind of the longer picture of the first six to nine months, and then we have like the ongoing picture of breastfeeding, so for however long you're going to breastfeed.

So Supporting your body in the immediate postpartum. I mean, you have a great episode on my podcast about postpartum nutrition and postpartum care. There's kind of a little adage that's like five days in the bed, five days on the bed, five days around the bed. Like we do not. Want to get up and going and run here and there and everywhere.

Just cause we feel good. Cause oh, we're not pregnant or my hips don't hurt anymore. There's a little bit of like an endorphin high for many women the first few days after birth. And it's like, stay in bed, rest, recover. All those gelatinous foods, all those rich broths, all those proteins and slow cooked veggies, and all those things are going to A, help with your recovery, but B, support your milk supply and lower your stress hormones so you can just be there bonding with the baby.

So then you have the first six to nine months, which is really The AAP recommends exclusive breastfeeding for the first six months, which means ideally no additional formula or solids. Before six months, a lot of people are kind of becoming more aware, there's actually a little bit of a developmental milestone, like can baby kind of sit up by themself most of the way and things like that before you introduce solids.

But usually you introduce them around six months and usually baby takes Several months to like mess around and figure it out. It's so messy. They're barely eating anything And then one day around nine or ten months You're like, oh this baby is like eating food and they want more of it and then then the burden on the breastfeeding mom decreases so for A lot of women, it's common, which we'll talk about next, but for their cycle to come back at six months or nine months, because you've introduced solids at six months and by nine months, usually the baby's like.

Taking off with solids and eating them two or three times a day and like Has a reduced need for breast milk at that point For those first six to nine months until baby starts taking solids better is an extensive pressure on your body, so Breast milk in and of itself is like roughly 20 calories per ounce.

I have a little segue that I forgot to mention how breast milk is changing. Um, based on the time of day, it's changing based on how old the baby is. I'll just add it in here. So. It's based on the time of day, how old the baby is, different techniques like breast massage before feeding or breast compression during feeding, mom's diet, mom's emotional state, and even the sex of the baby, and this is so interesting because there was a talk by an evolutionary biologist named Katie Hind in 2014, um, She was doing research with rhesus monkeys, I think that's how you say it, and the full study of course has not been like replicated in humans, but so far everything seems to track the same with humans.

Her study found that monkeys produce milk with 35 percent more fat and protein for male babies. So it's higher in calories for male babies than it is for female babies, but it's higher in volume for female babies than for male babies. And the milk for female babies is also higher in calcium. Because the female babies are getting higher volume, the amount of fat that they're getting, you know, boys and girls are getting, kind of remains the same.

It's so fascinating, and it's so interesting, because like baby boys do generally grow bigger. faster than baby girls, so it makes sense that they need a little bit more protein and it's so fascinating to me.

[00:35:00] So milk changes so much and formula is based off of the premise that Human milk is 20 calories per ounce, but it varies widely in the early days.

It can kind of be anywhere from 18 to 28 calories per ounce. There's actually a company that tests your milk and I've been like so fascinated this time around. So I had my milk tested a year ago at nine months and it was 25 calories per ounce and I just had it. tested last month and it was 37 calories per ounce.

So this is what happened. So because he eats tons of solid foods because he's 20 months old now. So your milk gets more concentrated. The antibodies get more concentrated. It's higher in fat. Like they're still getting all the good stuff, even though they're getting less milk. So all that to say, if you're producing a product that is say 20 calories per ounce, your body is going to take like 23 or 24 calories total to make that ounce.

[00:36:00] So when you're producing a full supply of breast milk, it's 25 to 30 ounces in 24 hours is considered a full milk supply. So, I mean, you're looking at 500 to 700 extra calories a day required just to make breast milk. But I want to clarify that is in the first six to nine months. So if you're like me and your baby starts sleeping more at night or they start eating more solids and you keep eating those 500 to 700 extra calories, you will start gaining weight.

And a lot of moms are like, I just gained weight during breastfeeding. I just have to add that caveat because sometimes I still see people saying, you need like 3000 calories a day while you're breastfeeding. And I'm like, well, let's talk about it because you might not. How old is your baby? You know, but honestly, breastfeeding hunger is like next level.

Compared to like pregnancy hunger, it's maybe like training for a marathon level of hunger. It's insane. So most people don't have a problem actually getting those extra calories in and in the beginning you need extra protein because you're recovering from birth in addition to making milk and you need a lot of those fat soluble vitamins from saturated fat that has been raised responsibly because as science tries to research why breast milk is so great, it's one of the main sources of vitamin A.

in an infant and toddler's diet. And of course that's taking that from moms. So it's a lot of what you preach in conscious conception, just on steroids, more of everything for a while. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, that's the six to nine months. And then the ongoing one is just like the fatigue, the emotional support, the long term nutritional stores, hormonal changes as baby starts to wean, as your cycle comes back.

So anyways, there are kind of different phases of supporting your body and what works at. Six weeks probably isn't what you need at six months or at a year or something like that So don't be afraid to kind of pivot as well.

[00:38:00] Loren: Hey, it's Loren I just want to give you a quick break to share that if you're currently breastfeeding and trying to conceive My pregnancy prep e course has specific resources that cover What you can expect for the return of your cycle postpartum and how to track it How to encourage the return of your cycle if it's It's still nowhere to be found while continuing to breastfeed because you don't necessarily have to stop.

The steps you need to take to support breastfeeding while trying to conceive, how to work through supply issues, supporting breastfeeding during pregnancy, and so much more. Visit innatefertility.org/get-pregnant to learn more. And if you're loving the show, don't forget to leave a review. Now back to the episode.

[00:38:52] Loren: Yeah, I think that's really great advice and really based on like, really amazing observations. I feel like people just want, and I think that this is a good challenge because the self awareness and really tuning into what you need in the moment can be really hard for people. Sometimes they just want answers.

And this is not just for breastfeeding mothers. I'm just making a social commentary, but I feel like they just want to be told what to do. And it's easier to have one thing to do rather than like have to check in and shift, you know, really tap in and ask yourself what you're feeling. So that self awareness and being able to do that is really, really difficult to establish.

And I think as you become a mother, go through matrescence as well, that might just become a lot easier. But I think it's really important to keep that in mind that it's not just like a one size fits all, all the time, or it's static all the time. You're a dynamic human being and you know, your needs are going to change, your baby's needs are going to change. So be flexible.

[00:39:50] Therese: And it seems to change pretty quickly. It's like, you've got to figure it out, you know, whatever it is, the feeding or the sleep or daytime routine. And then it like, with babies, it changes on a dime because they just go, their brain literally overnight changes. And they're like, we're in the next stage now.

You know, nothing that you did before is going to work. FYI. There's an app called Wonder Weeks that helps a little bit with that. Have you heard of that? I haven't. You have to pay like four bucks for it, but it's pretty handy because when you go through those phases of like What the heck? Like what I was doing last week is not working at all this week.

And you pull up your app and it'll say, Oh, baby's in leap four or whatever. Their brain is doing this and they're learning these new skills. And once you read it on there, you look at your baby and you're like, Oh yeah. That's why you're not sleeping. That's why your whole routine has changed. Anyways, just yeah.

Pro tip wonder weeks app is worth the 4 or whatever it makes you pay. 

[00:40:49] Loren: Well, that's a good reminder to like your baby's changing. Don't expect. Your needs to also stay the same. Well, you touched on this for a hot second just before I'd love to talk about the return of your cycle while breastfeeding or Using it as a form of birth control can Breastfeeding really be used as a form of birth control.

What do we kind of accept while breastfeeding?

[00:41:13] Therese: And it's so interesting to see this shift that has happened in the last 10 years with this because it used to be just kind of like assumed like your period is not going to come back while you're breastfeeding, even though that wasn't what the research said.

And then in these health, crunchy, mom, pro-metabolic, whatever circles, There's some talk like, oh, maybe if you have an early period, it means that you're iron overloaded. Or maybe if you have an early period, it means that you're really nourished. Or if you have an earlier period, maybe it means you're not really nourished.

And it's like, oh my gosh, I have not seen any rhyme or reason to this. You guys, like none, none, there's none. Many women will have from kid to kid, they will have a similar experience with it. But even My personal experience with NOD, I got it back at six months with my first and three months with my second and eight weeks with my third.

None of them have had formula. None of them have slept through the night before a year. You know, so it's like, take everything with a grain of salt. Some women are freaking out because they're like, maybe I'm not nourished enough because I'm not ovulating and having a period. And I'm like, It's okay.

Technically, the average for getting your cycle back is 14 months, but that's assuming that women are breastfeeding for that long. And I feel like anecdotally, that's late. I feel like most women, like I said, with the solids are around six to nine months, but you can get pregnant before having your first postpartum period.

So your prolactin is really high in pregnancy, but it's not making milk because your placenta is also pumping out a whole bunch of progesterone. So once those progesterone levels drop, then your prolactin levels can kick in and be functional because the progesterone is not blocking them.

[00:43:00] And oftentimes that swing happens between days three to five.

And it's the day that your milk, quote unquote, comes in, becomes more plentiful, and often it's a very emotional day, like you're post birth, you know, you're feeling good, whatever, and then you have a day where you're just like, really weepy, or like having a panic attack, and that's generally, yay, your milk has come in, but also like, that is the biggest hormone swing of your life, is going from birth.

full term pregnancy progesterone to none. So the moral of that story is that prolactin is very high in the beginning and one of the many goals of frequent efficient milk removal is that it sensitizes the milk making cells in your breast to prolactin. So actually over the course of breastfeeding, Overall, your prolactin levels go down.

Your milk supply can still stay the same if you've sensitized your cells, your breast tissue, to prolactin. And I know there's a whole bunch of things that I don't know about prolactin and inflammation and things like that.

[00:44:00] But your prolactin goes down throughout your breastfeeding journey and your milk supply doesn't necessarily with that.

But every time you feed, your prolactin spikes. And so those prolactin spikes, in theory, are what is going to prevent prolactin. ovulation. It's going to inhibit those other hormones, the FSH and the OH, and things that you know way more about than I do. It's going to keep them from releasing an egg, in theory.

So, there's something called the lactational amenorrhea method that has some rules. So, there are three rules. One is that you can't have had your period, your cycle back yet. The second rule is that you must be exclusively breastfeeding and this is actually really specific. So it's saying you're not away from your baby for more than one feeding.

You know, you're not at work pumping. That doesn't necessarily count. You haven't given your baby a pacifier. Like there are some really specific, the pacifier one could be argued and that's a different story, but there are some really specific. Qualifiers for what it means to exclusively breastfeed and your baby has to be less than six months old.

And so I think that's what some people forget is like even if you meet those other two criteria if your baby's over six months old The lactation amenorrhea method is no longer effective and even meeting all those criteria. It's 98 percent effective. So Just to be super clear, yeah, breastfeeding is not birth control, most women probably listening to this are charting their cycles and have some other sort of method of perhaps knowing what's coming, um, based on cervical mucus and things like that, but that's the lactational amenorrhea method and that's the quote unquote birth control aspect of breastfeeding.

[00:45:40] Loren: And thank you for that, that's really helpful and I hope it helps kind of, Illuminate the answer for a lot of women who might be wondering, because I feel like maybe in our parents or their parents generation, it was more of a common, like, thing, like, oh, just breastfeed, it'll be birth control, that perception, knowledge.But in my practice, that does not work.

[00:46:10] Loren: I highly encourage you to learn fertility awareness specifically so that you can understand because that ovulation will happen before you get your period. And that means you can get pregnant before you ever get your period. And if you're trying to not right away, you know, it can be really surprising and sometimes put you in a situation you don't necessarily want to do.

[00:46:31] Therese: It's so interesting because there are statistics, the women who ovulate before their first period, usually their luteal phase is so short that it doesn't actually sustain a pregnancy, but we all know an exception to that rule. I know like multiple examples of twin exceptions to that rule for whatever reason.

So yeah, yeah, it's not birth control in and of itself for sure. Yeah. 

[00:46:55] Loren: And for that reason too, even, you know, if you do sustaining it, so [00:47:00] potentially going through a loss, it's just not fun. 

[00:47:04] Therese: So, no, it's not. And if breastfeeding exclusively for any amount of time is your goal, it will also affect that because if you get pregnant at three or four months postpartum, you know, you can absolutely breastfeed through pregnancy.

However, there's a point in pregnancy that's different for every woman, but it's going to affect your milk supply. And depending on how old your first baby is, it may or may not affect the success of your breastfeeding journey too. So some people do want to have their babies back to back to back. And as a lactation consultant, that's on me to say, like, just think about though, like where you want your breastfeeding journey with your first to be before that happens.

That's a good point too. And then on the flip side, of course, there's the women who want to get pregnant again but they're still breastfeeding their three year old and their period hasn't come back and There's a bunch of tips and tricks you gotta like. Yes. Yeah, buy Lauren's course if you [00:48:00] want to know about amenorrhea and pregnancy.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Well, 

[00:48:07] Loren: this is a great segue. Because I feel like I have to ask this question, and we kind of have already really touched on it in a wide variety of ways, but I would love to hear from you your perspective on, is breast really best? Can you tell us the good, the bad, the ugly, things that people don't tell you, also, how hard it can be etc.?

[00:48:32] Therese: Yeah, I mean, I think the short answer is yes, but anyone who knows me knows that I don't really give short answers the terminology actually the who uses. Oh, so I said the AP and who recommend exclusive breastfeeding for six months. I never continued that thought. Um, and then they recommend. The AAP used to say breastfeeding to one year alongside complementary solids and now just in the last year they have increased it to two years to match up with the WHO.

So they're saying breastfeed to until two years alongside complementary solids or as long as it's mutually beneficial for mother and child. So I love that line. I mean that's it in a nutshell. Basically it's you know if this is not working for you or your baby of course they're A thousand alternatives or like we said combination feeding gray areas also, but there are ways to keep breastfeeding in a way that's sustainable to you too.

So, I mean, I've had to troubleshoot that in my own life. My counselor was like, you have to get at least four hours of unbroken sleep. You know, that doesn't mean that I'm like night weaning my baby. There are a lot of ways to. Get really creative and problem solving and again, I'm not very good at that when I am in like my postpartum mom brain, but I'm really good at that when I'm in my like work mode professional brain.

[00:50:00] So there's always room for creativity there. So, of course, breast milk is going to be the best for your baby. The, if you need to supplement the recommendations are mom's own milk first. So her pumped milk one way or another. And then the second recommendation actually from the WHO is safe human donor milk.

And then the third recommendation is a human milk substitute. So yeah, mom's mental health matters. We covered that, but there are benefits to mom for breastfeeding too. And if she wants to make it work, making it work is the best thing for both of them. 

[00:50:35] Loren: Yeah, I think that's a very balanced response to that question.

And I think probably it's just so much emotion behind this question too, but trying to approach this objectively and doing what's best for you and knowing that that is okay is also just 

[00:50:55] Therese: really important. Yeah, and I think, you know, I'm not walking [00:51:00] around with a badge that says breast is best. I think informed is best, educated is best, supported is best, all those terms.

But sure, human milk is the best thing for human babies, but there's a thousand. Things to talk about after you say that. 

[00:51:17] Loren: Yeah, I think in general too, I think eating any animal that's had its natural diet, and this is not necessarily like, just kind of a tangent, but I will look for, I will invest in if I can.

meat from animals able to eat their own diet because that's going to be optimal for me as well. So it's not just applicable to humans. It's like applicable to really anything that can be consumed

[00:51:44] Therese: And I'm even thinking of now Weston A. Price and his research, which You know, shows that once you're like two generations removed from your ancestral diet, whatever it is, right, you know, whatever part of the country you live in and whatever that ancestral diet is, you know, it's not that there's one exact ancestral diet, but you know, these whole food, real food ways of eating seasonally based and those matter.

And something we haven't even touched on is palate formation and jaw formation and all of those things that are extremely benefited by breastfeeding. And I think, again, like everything is so nuanced because switching to bottle feeding if you're having latch issues doesn't solve the problem. It sometimes can foster the poor oral motor function and the poor tongue movement and the high palate and all that stuff.

There are absolutely ways to bottle feed appropriately and address those things besides, but a lot of times people are like, oh, It didn't work for me for X, Y, and Z reasons, so we switched to Roboto. And I'm like, but you still need to address those issues in a perfect world, as time and money allow, to, to prevent these narrow jaws and crowded teeth and airway issues and things like that when they get older.

[00:53:01] Loren: Yeah, I think that's a great point, and that's something that I've noticed with the adults around me as well. Even myself, I was breastfed for six months, but I do have a tie, or my tongue, it's more attached to the bottom of my mouth, and so I can't roll my R's, and I can't touch the roof of my mouth. When I opened my jaw completely, and this comes into like a whole issue with my TMJ and my neck and I was still breastfed for six months, but my biological dentist was like, yeah, this is probably because you didn't have the full length of breastfeeding.

And there's just like more than just the immunological benefits or like the nutritional benefits. There's also like structural benefits to breastfeeding. And I look at my husband and his sister who were not breastfed because His mother had blood blisters forming on her breasts.

[00:54:00] So she tried to breastfeed his sister, who's older. And then when he came, she just didn't even try because she was like, it was way too painful. And I think back then there really wasn't much support. I don't think that women knew to seek it out either. And I also think I'm pretty sure they both have several ties, but there wasn't a lot of awareness of that.

So, I think they've had to have extensive orthodontistry work, like spreading of the palate, lots of like really intense braces and contractions. And so it's so interesting how many ripple effects it can have.

[00:54:39] Therese: Yeah, and it's kind of a chicken and egg effect. So it's like, is your jaw narrow because you didn't breastfeed or did you not breastfeed because your jaw was narrow, you know, already?

And it doesn't really matter what the answer is. The point is that it's all connected. But I also don't want to minimize nipple pain either. It is like one of the scariest things to experience and you're like, I want to breastfeed, but like I know this is gonna hurt. And it is pretty horrible, and if you're already in any sort of pain postpartum, which there's a certain, obviously, baseline amount of inflammation that's going to be going on after you get a baby out, one way or the other, there's no easy way to get a baby out, and so if you're already in pain and then you have pain with latching, it's just like, what might have been like a 4 out of 10 is suddenly like a 9 out of 10 because your threshold is just blown, so.

You're welcome. Address nipple pain right away. Do not listen to your next door neighbor's sister who says, your breasts just blister and then they bleed and then they scab over and then it's fine. I've actually heard people say that and that is not normal whatsoever. So please get help the minute you have nipple pain that doesn't fix with like a quick taking them off and relatching them.

Definitely not normal.

[00:55:53] Loren: Thank you for that too. I think you make the great point that breastfeeding shouldn't be like suffering. 

[00:55:59] Therese: Yeah. And people think that it is. It's so often moms are like, I'll just do it. I'll just do it. It's like a pervasive thing that we do in motherhood. It's like, I will just do it.

I will get through it. I will power through like, cause that's what moms do. And that's wonderful and amazing. There's a. Charlotte Mason quote that says, Mothers will do wonders when wonders are expected of them. But, You will burn out eventually if you don't have support in that. It's definitely not a one woman show.

[00:56:32] Loren: I think that's a good reminder, Teresa. 

[00:56:35] Therese: Yeah, note to self, for sure. But I also wanted to say breastfeeding is a vital sign. You know, we're talking about oral health and things like that. Breastfeeding is a vital sign for mom and baby. Mom's supply, or lack thereof, is telling us something about her. You know, not Emotionally or judgmentally, but it's telling us something.

It's a vital sign and maybe with a poor latch or painful latch or poor milk transfer, it's also a vital sign and it's telling us things that we need to look deeper into. 

[00:57:04] Loren: That's also really important. It's information. One last thing I want to address before we get into like the wrap up sort of area. I think it would be really great to address the recent Bobby formula backlash, but also the predatory marketing that a lot of these formula companies utilize on new parents, because I think.

There can be extremes on both ends, but I think it's important to be aware that like, formula companies are not just benign. They exist to make money, and so they're going to use marketing tactics on you. And so I think it's important to be an informed parent. to be able to spot these things and understand if you are being influenced.

I know not all mothers will be able to or may choose not to breastfeed for various reasons, but to help new mothers, especially in this situation, do you have any perspectives that you'd like to share on this sort of area of formula?

[00:58:01] Therese: Yeah. So there is an international code of conduct related to marketing of breast milk substitutes and breastfeeding.

Replacement accessories, basically, essentially bottles, pacifiers, and formula. There are rules for me as a lactation consultant that I cannot be paid by a formula company or a bottle company or a pacifier company, or, um, cannot like promote a certain formula to people. And the formula companies are subject to those as well.

When I first became a nurse, they gave away, it was so funny. They gave away like really nice. diaper bags with formula in them, and I don't even remember what else was in them. I didn't have kids at the time, but I was like, this is like nice stuff, just like this freebie from the hospital from Similac. But it was so funny because they also had a breastfeeding one that, like, was basically a smaller version of the same thing.

It still had formula in it, just in case. And so they can't do that anymore. So these flaws are always kind of constantly evolving. I'll be honest, the Bobby, I know that there was a huge thing, maybe you can fill me in more, I have read the response letter to Bobby, but I never saw the initial thing, and then I tried Googling it, and clearly it has been scrubbed, because everything I tried to Google was like, from 2022 or earlier, so what happened?

[00:59:29] Loren: I cannot speak in an educated way. Your question was, I had the same issue. It was brought to my attention. I was like heads down working on conscious consumption. And one of my colleagues was like, have you heard about this? And I'm like, no, let me go check it out. This sounds really messed up. And I went to their website, I Googled it and I couldn't find anything.

Their website also looked very Neutral. It wasn't aggressive. It could have been ads. It could have been, I don't know exactly what it was, but it made a lot of women very angry.

[01:00:00] Therese:  Yeah. Yes. I mean, I got that part of it for as it was happening, but I never looked into like the original. I don't know what happened either.

There is another scandal going on right now. I think in Europe with a formula exec basically who was I haven't looked into all these details either, but basically who's like, I'm going to advertise a sale, which is not supposed to happen. And everybody's in uproar about it. But again, I'm just like, Oh, I can't take the drama.

So yes, formula companies. are mostly out to make money and that's fine because all of us are doing whatever we do at the end of the day to make money and support our families but just formula as a whole we talked a little bit about cow's milk and human milk and so any appropriate human milk replacement you have to like dilute the cow's milk.

And so you dilute the protein and then you have to add back in fat and sugar. And so most of the formula companies are doing this in the cheapest way possible. So they're adding in like seed oil. And thankfully now they're all adding in lactose, but there was a time where it was corn syrup instead of lactose.

They're just doing it in the cheapest way possible. And a lot of moms do kind of have a little existential crisis. Like they're like, I don't mind supplementing, but what on earth do I supplement with? That's where I'm like, first, we look to your supply, your ability to pump milk, and then we look to um, safe donor milk.

I think that Human Milk for Human Babies and Eats on Beats are both groups that usually have a chapter like state by state that can help you find. There are starting to be more like peer run milk donation groups. Here, local to me, the Malone Center in Lincoln, Nebraska just started like a mobile milk bank, essentially.

[01:02:00] These are different from milk banks, like the Denver Milk Bank and the Austin Milk Bank. There are some big hospitals that have big milk banks that take donor milk, they screen it extensively, they test it all, like I was saying, for fat and calories and all that stuff, and then they combine it, so it's kind of at 20 calories per ounce, like it's a very scientific process, so they pool all the milk and then they do pasteurize it, and then that milk is sent to NICUs for babies who don't have access to their own mom's milk, which is wonderful because donor milk is way better than formula for a preemie in the NICU, but they also make human milk fortifier out of it, which they will add to mom's own milk if she has a preemie to like increase the protein and some of the minerals.

So. That's different than a lot of the donor milk banks that are locally run because those are not pasteurized. They're not technically There are different levels of screening etc. Etc. So I'm not like just go out and get any breast milk on the black market but generally Unless you're buying that pasteurized, batched donor milk, which is like 4 an ounce, it's not cheap, and you have to have a prescription for it.

Unless you're buying that, you do need to use caution, obviously, and you don't want to pay for milk, because usually milk that has been bought, it has been diluted with water or cow's milk. So it's really important to not do that. So anyway, so when you get to formula, you do want to look for, I think, organic is a great baseline minimum.

I mean, even Similac has an organic formula and, um, I think there are some that have grass fed milk as their base, which is great. You do want to ideally avoid the ones that have soy oil or soy protein added. Usually, the companies that most breastfeeding moms choose are Holly,

[01:04:00] it's H O L L E, and HIPP, which is H I P P, they're European brands, and the EU is much more strict about Constitutes as food compared to the FDA, so generally the ingredient lists on those is shorter and a little bit cleaner for lack of a better word.

So I had moms also in the past who were really concerned about folic acid because almost every single formula has folic acid in it. And actually HIP just in the last year started using, it's a form of methylfolate called metafolin instead of folic acid. So HIP now has that option. And then just today I was googling like, do any other formulas have it?

And there is Jovi goat's milk. And I know nothing about their company, but when I pulled up their website, it was like, Human milk first, and it made me like click out of the box before I went to the formula page, which I thought was nice. So the Jovi goat's milk formula also has a Metafolan in it instead of folic acid, which is really important to some people.

And also I have to say that goat's milk has almost no folate in it. So probably about once a year either in the hospital or in somebody's home, I'll have somebody tell me like I grew up on goat's milk and I am just fine. I'm like Okay. Goat's milk can be used to make formula, but it has to have even more folate added than normal because it's low in that.

I just don't use plain animal's milk before your baby's like 10 months old, regardless of what your, you know, grandma's uncle did. So lots of disclaimers there. 

[01:05:39] Loren: I think that's so helpful. And yeah, just the cautions around donor milk, because I think that's really important. You just can't. Get it from Miranda on the corner.

[01:05:51] Therese: Yeah. I mean, just cause it's better than formula in theory, know your sources. Yeah. 

[01:05:57] Loren: And you could find like, well, you're a lactation consultant in your local area would probably know the best place to get it. There's probably Facebook groups in your local areas. Keep it local, basically.

[01:06:08] Therese: Yeah, I get texts from moms, too, that are like, I have all this milk in my freezer that's about to expire.

Like, do you know anybody who needs it? Yeah, definitely reach out to your local. Even if you didn't need lactation help at the beginning of your journey, like, reach out to your local consultant. If you have extra or if you know somebody who needs some, it's probably a good place to start. 

[01:06:26] Loren: Yeah, I think that's super important.

And then the formula information. Definitely. I think if your baby has ties to like feeding them formula with folic acid is probably not the best.

[01:06:37] Therese: Yeah. Yeah. Consider MTHFR.

[01:06:43] Loren: Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole other, you know, worms and the homemade formula, even homemade formulas. Like it's very specific in terms of the ingredients that are added because of these natural, like, variations in a nutrient, so like, for example, the folate deficiency that you had mentioned around goat's milk.

There's a reason that if you're making a goat's milk formula, you have to supplement another source in.

[01:07:06] Therese: And even things like, you wouldn't think of milk as being high in vitamin C, but human milk is actually really high in vitamin C, or it should be if I'm getting enough in her diet. So if you're making a homemade formula, I would only use the Weston a price recipe.

I don't really recommend people using it before four or six months of age. That's kind of my personal. preference there. I actually have a whole podcast episode with Sally Fallon on my podcast about how she and Mary Enig invented that recipe. And it's totally appropriate. You dilute it, you add back in the lactose, you add back in the fat, except they're using like cream instead of seed oils.

But yes, it's very specific. So don't go off of just any random recipe on the internet or something like that. especially before six months. Babies electrolytes are so sensitive, you know, that's why you'll hear, like, don't give your baby water even when it's really hot out, if they're exclusively breastfeeding and things like that.

[01:08:00] And giving them just plain old milk before six months would be kind of causing a different set of problems in the same realm. Their kidneys are not going to be able to process that the same way that adult kidneys are. 

[01:08:13] Loren: Yeah, I think that's a great point. Well, thank you, Therese. I would love to start to wrap up the episode.

I appreciate your time. I want to ask you two more questions. What's one thing you would like to share with the audience that they can start doing today to unlock the innate wisdom of their body?

[01:08:33] Therese: Yeah, I like this question. It kind of made me think because I am kind of in a season of like chaos and kind of like I was saying the baby changing phases and suddenly you're like, well, I'm in a new season of life and whatever I was doing before is not working now.

So I think that in terms of like unlocking the innate wisdom, I think there's a element of knowing that it's a skill that you have to practice again and again. Like your students are probably learning one facet of tuning into their bodies and working for their bodies when they are trying to conceive and then you like level up when you're pregnant and you maybe learn the same lesson in a different way and birth you learn the same lesson in a different way and then I find that in my life these patterns just keep repeating.

It's like layers of an onion. And so postpartum and breastfeeding struggles, you know, it's this thing you're like, I thought I dealt with, you know, X, Y, and Z, but here it is again in a different form. And it's just making you stronger every time you go through that loop. Even in homeschooling with my older kids, I'm like learning the same.

Things that I had to learn when they were babies, like patience and trusting their innate ability to like developmentally transition to the next stage of learning and letting go of my expectations and realizing that I can only control so much and that this other shiny human is. a fully autonomous human being as well, who probably has a different agenda than I do.

So yeah, just knowing that those lessons are going to come up and it doesn't mean that you didn't learn them the first time. It's just an opportunity to reinforce kind of what you got out of it or see another aspect of it and reevaluate. 

[01:10:20] Loren: I think that's a beautiful way of looking at that, and just because you're experiencing these emotions again, or seeing this pattern again, doesn't mean, like, you did anything wrong or, you know, you failed.

Oftentimes, they're there to teach us even more so, and I think that that's a beautiful way of looking at that. Thank you. 

[01:10:39] Therese: Yeah. Yeah. Just preaching to myself.

[01:10:43] Loren: Yeah, which is important. I think you have to coach yourself sometimes.

[01:10:46] Therese: Yeah, and it is, you know, it's like, oh, what would you tell your friend in that situation?

And you're always like, but when you actually sit down and think about it, like, what would I tell my friend? I would have so much more compassion for them than I do for myself sometimes. Mm hmm. 

[01:11:02] Loren: I think that that's true. So think about that next time you're talking to yourself in a certain way. And my last question, how can people find you?

[01:11:12] Therese: Yeah, probably the easiest place is on Instagram. My private practice, um, business name is happy mama, healthy baby. So I'm at happy. mama. healthy. baby. I have a podcast called Milk and Motherhood. It's on all the major podcast platforms and My website is just HappyMamaHealthyBaby. co, so if you're in Nebraska, I'm outside of Omaha, I can do one on one consults with you.

I can do virtual consults and I enjoy doing them for women who have like more specific concerns with previous experiences or they want to do a prenatal consult. You have like nipple pain and your baby's not gaining weight. I really suggest finding a local lactation consultant for that really like in person experience, but I can do virtual consults.

My licensure is actually international, so it's been fun to work with like moms in Canada and just all over the place, but on my website and on my Instagram, you can find my. breastfeeding course. And I have two cookbooks too. So I have a breastfeeding course that's meant to be taken prenatally between 25 and 35 weeks.

And it's five hours of content. And we tell you to sit down and think about why you want to breastfeed and make sure your partner's watching this with you and all those important things that we talked about. And it really walks you through the whole journey. So there are a lot of breastfeeding classes out there, but this one walks you through like the third trimester through weaning.

Which is really nice for those moms who are like, I'm invested in this. I have plenty of people who come to my in person classes and they just say like, we'll see if it works, you know, and that's fine. That's what a 50 breastfeeding classes for, you know, but if you kind of are really invested and you love learning about things like I do, you know, we talk about like the hormones of it and how milk is made and how to eat specifically during postpartum and all of the things in terms of red flags.

When to seek individual help or how to work through something on your own. Since my third baby had all these food allergies, I have a food allergy cookbook for breastfeeding moms to make sure that you're still actually getting nourished with like real whole foods. And I don't want a food allergy mom to just be eating like pork and green beans and not really getting a lot of nourishment.

And then I have a little postpartum bundle that is a lot of the PDFs from our course. But. Perhaps the mom has rest, but before she took an in person class, she doesn't want to go to course. She just wants like freezer meal, postpartum recipes, like a nervous system regulation cheat sheet for just like how to tone things down on a really hard day and things like that.

So you can find those on my website or on my Instagram link and profile. And I will have a code for your listeners. Just the word innate, I N N A T E for 15 percent off of any of those. So that's where you can find me. Wow. Thank 

[01:14:11] Loren: you so much, Therese. That is an amazing sort of Spectrum of resources that you provide everyone for anyone where they're at.

So I still appreciate that. And I've personally taken your course. I'm going to take it again because now I want to make my husband take it with me. So, yes, do it, do it.

[01:14:30] Therese: Yes, please. There is actually a segment in it where my colleague and I interviewed our own husbands about what they would have done differently the first time around and how.

You can actually support your wife and how to take care of yourself too, right? Because it's not just dad's job to like, help. I mean, he's also a fully autonomous person in this equation who needs care and his whole life is getting turned upside down too. So yeah, the more you can do to prepare for it, the better.

Beautiful, 

Loren: [01:15:00] beautiful. Well, thank you so much again, Therese. It was a pleasure having you

[01:15:03] Therese: Yeah, you're so welcome.

[01:15:09] Loren: Thank you so much for listening to the Innate Wisdom Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please leave us a review and share the podcast with someone who you think might benefit. If you're new here, we can't recommend enough that you take advantage of my free resources, like the Get Pregnant Yesterday Checklist, Psycholiteracy Guide, Prenatal Primer, and Sperm Booster Manual.

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