Innate Wisdom Podcast

What It's About:

On this episode of the Innate Wisdom Podcast, I invited Doctor Grace Jones, CMD and BHSc.Acu. Grace is an Acupuncturist & Chinese Medicine Practitioner based on the east coast of Queensland, Australia. It's her passion in her work and life to empower women to heal and create the families they dream of through the lens of a holistic, Chinese-Medicine based approach.

Listen to hear more about:

- What is Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)?
- The doctrine and components of TCM
- How TCM can support fertility
- How acupuncture works to redirect energy to the organs and bodily functions that need it most
- How acupuncture supports fertility and conditions like PCOS (Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome), uterine and ovarian fibroids, endometriosis, ovarian reserve, sperm quality, and more
- TCM herbs for supporting fertility
- Do's & don'ts of incorporating TCM
- And much more!

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Loren Sofia: Today we have Grace Jones, one of my favorite Conscious Conception students, and she's an amazing, amazing Chinese medicine doctor and acupuncturist. And I'm so excited to have you here today. Grace. Thanks so much for being here. Welcome.

[00:00:17] Grace Jones: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. 

[00:00:22] Loren Sofia: We are excited to have you. So, I always like to start the show with asking people a little bit about what led them to where they're at today, because I think it's really awesome to hear everyone's journey and everyone's journey is a little bit different and it's really unique to hear how someone ended up doing what they're doing because oftentimes the passion behind their current work is led by personal experiences. So, can you share a little bit about what led you to where you're at today? 

[00:00:53] Grace Jones: Of course. I have a little bit of an unconventional journey into natural medicine. I know a lot of people who've come into natural medicine through their own healing journeys, but my own healing journey actually didn't start until I was already qualified as an acupuncturist. So. My interest in natural medicine actually came about as a result of my history with horses. I grew up horse riding, competitively, showjumping, and eventing and horses used to get herbs. They'd get homeopathy, they'd get chiropractic adjustments, and they'd get acupressure. And we never did the kids like myself and my siblings. We never got that stuff generally, but our horses did, but that was my first kind of introduction to those modalities and seeing the results from those. And so, I ended up actually taking a year off after school to go and ride horses and see if that was maybe what I wanted to do as a career and decided it wasn't. And that I really did want to study. And I actually got into physiotherapy first, which I think you guys just called physical therapy and that just didn't quite fit right. I was like, I knew I wanted to do something with health, something that involved healing the body, but it didn't quite fit. So, I ended up going to a few open days at different colleges and I was actually looking at naturopathy and herbal medicine. I thought that would be something that would be really cool. I really enjoyed it when we would use that sort of stuff with our horses. And so, I thought that would be fun. And I actually walked past a display of Chinese medicine at one of these colleges and it just drew me like a magnet. I went, “Ah!”, I kind of looked and I saw that they were doing acupuncture. There was herbal medicine involved as well. There was, you know, diet, lifestyle, exercise. And it was pretty clear immediately that it wasn't a quick fix kind of modality. And of course, I knew there was so much history around it that I just got really interested in it. I decided I'd, you know, think about it, but I took the papers home and I signed up that night. Cause I just went, you know what, I'm just going to do it. And that was the beginning of it. And I kind of just jumped into the degree going well, if I don't like it, I can always change. And I loved it. So. That was where my journey to acupuncture and Chinese medicine began. And in terms of women's health and my interest in women's health and fertility, that was really part of my own journey as a result, one of the results of university, and then moving to Melbourne, which is a much colder climate than where I'm living now. I started experiencing horribly painful periods and these symptoms, at the time, seemed to come out of the blue, which I now know they didn't. But anyway, at the time it seemed like they did, and that prompted my own journey into using these modalities and going, “Right. What can I do to help myself?” Because that was something that I never really had to do before. So, between that, I just started noticing that I was attracting women's health, fertility patients, and it's something I just grew really interested in. And over time it just started to actually really fascinate me. And the more I looked into it, the more I enjoyed it. And that's just kind of led me to where I am now.

[00:04:07] Loren Sofia: That's amazing. Thank you for sharing. And to think it all started with horses!

[00:04:13] Grace Jones: I know! And I'm back here now, eight years later, I've been practicing for eight years, and I've just moved back into a place where I have my horses again. So, it's like coming full circle. It's beautiful.

[00:04:28] Loren Sofia: That must be so nice, that is beautiful. Well, you know, I want to talk about Chinese medicine because a lot of people are familiar with the term, I think, but, you know, I don't think people truly understand what it encompasses because it's actually quite a bit. And so, can you talk about exactly what Chinese medicine is? 

[00:04:46] Grace Jones: Absolutely. So many people think that Chinese medicine is acupuncture and, or Chinese herbal medicine.

And those are two big parts of Chinese medicine, but the actual term of Chinese medicine is an umbrella term. So that umbrella term encapsulates not only acupuncture and Chinese medicine, but things like acupressure. So instead of using needles, using fingers, cupping. That's something called gua sha, which is all the rage at the moment with beauty and people doing it on their face. But we do it in other parts of the body as well. Moxibustion which is like a warming therapy. Chinese herbs of course, diet and lifestyle, and even exercise as well. Things like tai chi and she'd gone (?). So it's actually a huge model of originally it looks actually preventative care, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, Chinese doctors were paid when their patients didn't get sick. And that was what the medicine was really built on. And if the patient got sick, they didn't get paid. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. So, it's really built on this foundation of preventative care, keeping you well, and here's all the things that you can do during the different seasons and during the different phases of life to help with that. And one other thing about Chinese medicine which is quite cool is that its roots are in the ancient philosophy of Taoism, which is just, it's like poetry reading that some of those ancient texts, they talk about interplay of yin and yang, night and day, light and dark, and how all of these things relate to nature, but also the body and all the little workings within the body. It's like how far down you want to drill? You can still see those same dynamics. It's very cool, but yeah, a lot more than acupuncture and herbs, 

[00:06:34] Loren Sofia: Right? I think at least when I initially, you know, heard of Chinese medicine, I actually had an integrative doctor that I worked with a long time ago, who first introduced me and I was looking for more than just the conventional and he's like, “So, I'm trained in Chinese Medicine [whisper]”. I think he was scared to talk about it because he wasn't sure how it would be received because it was New York and, you know, everyone was very conventionally focused. Yep. That was my first taste. And he introduced me to the concept of hot and cold and yin and yang. He told me my liver was hot and he did a whole assessment on me, which was really fascinating, but I really only, at that point, thought it was just kind of herbs still. So as the time has gone on, I've realized it's much more and it's really the whole body, which I love, you know, it's looking at the whole person, which is so important rather than just chasing down rabbit holes. What you said though too, that Chinese doctors used to be paid for healthy patients. Doesn’t that sound…

[00:07:54] Loren Sofia: Mindblowing! Completely flipped on its head? 

[00:07:57] Grace Jones: And it would be like at the minute, if someone would have, you know, symptoms of, for example, heat in the liver, they go, okay, here's a single exercise you need to do and eat these sorts of foods for the next two weeks. And then I'll come visit you again. It would be really at that first sign, not until someone was absolutely exhausted, ran into the ground and could no longer work or something.

[00:08:17] Loren Sofia: Right. And that typically is the, when conventional medicine can truly help when it got a little bit too far.

[00:08:24] Grace Jones: Yeah.

[00:08:26] Loren Sofia: So fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. And what's so interesting is that you're a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine. And one of the things that you specialize in though is fertility. And so, I'm really curious. How does fertility intersect with traditional Chinese medicine? 

[00:08:46] Grace Jones: Yeah, and look, it actually goes back to that same model of preventative care. And the way that I personally see fertility in a person is just it being a state of optimal health. And so, if the body has everything it needs, it wants to reproduce. And if there's issues with reproduction, then there's something blocking that there's something in the way. So, what we like to do is essentially look at the body from that holistic Chinese medicine point of view. And we don't only look at the ovaries, the uterus, we look at the entire body, what's your digestion like? Are you having nightmares and bad dreams? What kind of emotions do you have tendencies towards as well as looking at things like symptoms throughout your cycle, that just give us an overall picture of that interplay of yin and yang, heat and cold, the interplay of all the different organs and how they're all talking to each other. Because the blockage isn't always in that lower part of the body and the pelvis. Sometimes it's up in the heart, sometimes in the digestion. Sometimes it's further up in the throat. It can be kind of anywhere in the body, that's blocking that conception energy. So. It's a whole detective process, which is also something that I really enjoy. We have acupuncturists, they're a little bit known for asking, like all the questions, the intake forms are normally enormous, and people are going, I don't get how this relates to what I'm coming in for, but it does. We still view every single symptom through that lens of what that person's trying to achieve, but also where they're coming from.

[00:10:17] Loren Sofia: Yeah, and that context is really important, I think, and it's not going to be achieved in a five-minute visit with a physician, the sort of really quick turnstile kind of office environment. You really have to get to know somebody as a practitioner, but also, as a patient, you want to provide this context because it matters so much. And even just a little bit of your story, which is kind of how you got here today. If you were to sort of map out a timeline of your life and there are definitely. Heat points where it might manifest in what you're experiencing today. And that's really important to share because it could be a key piece of the puzzle. So, I love that. And that's really important too, because especially with fertility, there's so many different things that could potentially make it easier or harder. And I love that fact that you look for the sort of source of the blockage. It's really cool. Awesome. So, I guess if somebody was looking to incorporate traditional Chinese medicine in their fertility journey, where could they begin?

[00:11:28] Grace Jones: So, one of the best places to start would probably be looking for someone who's local to you. And the reason I say that is as much as I love Zoom and being able to talk with people on the other side of the world, there's a lot that we can miss from a Chinese medicine perspective, especially when we're looking at things like heat and cold. Like one thing I always feel for is I'll touch a woman's lower belly and then upper belly and see if there's a temperature difference. And quite often there is, and the lower belly will be very cold, but that's not something we could really tell over zoom. And some of the other things that we'll do looking at the tongue, feeling the pulse. It's just a good idea to get that idea of someone who can see you in person and kind of touch you and really assess you. But also, you really want to make sure that you're engaging with someone who does specialize or has training in fertility and pregnancy, because there are certain acupuncture points that we don't ever needle in pregnancy. And then there's a little bit more nuance to that as well, but basically you want to make sure there's someone who knows, you know, about the menstrual cycle and what happens in those different phases and how that will change from a Chinese medicine point of view. And if you could be pregnant, what, what do they need to do or not do? And there's a lot of nuances there that can be missed if you're seeing someone who doesn't really know much about it. So, someone who's got training, fertility's a must as well as someone who's obviously qualified as an acupuncturist and herbalist. 

[00:12:56] Loren Sofia: Awesome. So, it sounds like traditional Chinese medicine is really hands-on. So, you kind of want that in-person interaction, but also if you are utilizing it for fertility to find somebody that's trained in that too. 

[00:13:11] Grace Jones: Yes. And if there's someone who maybe lives really rurally and that isn't a practitioner, there's absolutely things that we can do via distance. For sure. There's just a couple of things that we'll miss, but there are still things that we can do, absolutely.

[00:13:25] Loren Sofia: Awesome, so there's a lot of support. No matter your situation, it sounds like too. That's great, awesome. So, I guess if somebody is struggling with fertility, a big question that I'm really curious about, you know, including recurrent pregnancy loss and things like that. How can traditional Chinese medicine help them?

[00:13:46] Grace Jones: This is a big one. Acupuncture works in Chinese medicine, but I'm going to focus mostly on acupuncture because there's a lot of research on how acupuncture works that's a little bit more vague or not as well-known as things like herbal medicine and then your lifestyle changes. So, acupuncture particularly works in lots of ways in the body. It's really quite fascinating. I like to look at it from both the Western medicine point of view in terms of what's going on in terms of our biochemical pathways and what's going on in our body, but also from the Chinese medicine point of view, we're looking at what's happening in terms of chi, blood, yin and yang in the body and how that all flows together. So, to give a very, very quick explanation of how acupuncture works is when we insert the needles into the body and, anyone who's a little needle-phobic and that sounds terrifying, just know the needles that most acupuncturists use are as thin as a strand of hair. They are tiny. And most of the time you will not feel them, but even though they are so tiny, what happens is when we insert those needles into the skin or into the belly of the muscle, some are at nerve plexuses some are a single branch nerve. When we insert that needle in, what it does is it creates a very, very micro-inflammatory response, which is just enough to encourage blood flow to that point. So, if we've popped that in an area that encourages hormone production, if we pop it over the ovaries, for example, it's going to directly influence blood flow to that area. We're not going to stick it in the ovaries, just in the general kind of area. And one piece of research that I found just recently actually as to one of the major ways in which acupuncture works, because one of the questions I get a lot is how can acupuncture work for so many things? I treat fertility, but other people will treat hay fever or cough, pain, all sorts of things. Headaches, acupuncture works for so many different things. And this is really, really interesting, is acupuncture actually initiates the process, this is going to get a bit science-y called purinergic signaling. So, this is an ancient system in the body that uses adenosine and ATP for signaling throughout the body and regulation in all tissues. Anyone who's done any kind of biochemistry knows that ATP is involved with energy production all throughout the body, throughout the entire body, basically. And acupuncture works by helping to regulate that system. Which is crazy. I love modern medicine. And given that we look at acupuncture in terms of chi, which is kind of energy, that just gives that a whole new meaning to me when we're looking at that also from the lens of what ATP is that potential for creating energy in the body. So that's one of the really general ways it works. And in terms of more specific functions, like I said, blood flow is a really, really big one. So for fertility, we focus a lot on bringing blood flow to the ovaries and that first half of the cycle to promote the growth of the follicle and then proper ovulation and the proper formation of the Corpus luteum as well as blood flow to the uterus to nourish the lining, make sure it's nice and thick, thick enough, try and make it nice and homey for a little embryo that might form, but also promoting blood flow actually means that we bring a lot of the inflammation fighting parts to the blood– area as well, all your white blood cells and your immune parts. So, if there is any inflammation in that area, it can just help the body to start to clear that away a little bit as well, which is also really helpful in a form when there's things like scar tissue, potentially with things like adhesions from endometriosis surgery and that sort of thing. One of the other ways it works is that it helps to boost the production of neurotransmitters and biochemicals that basically inhibit your stress hormones and make you feel really good. Some people walk out of the room looking a little bit stoned. My receptionist is always laughing because people just come out on like absolute cloud nine looking blissed out and well, yeah, stone did we call it the Accu-high. So that has an amazing effect on your body's nervous system and stress response. And of course, that we know how much stress affects fertility and our reproductive function. So that's another way in which it helps with fertility as well, and also helps with hormones. 

[00:18:22] Loren Sofia: Wow. It sounds like there's so many, I guess like areas or methods of attack, it sounds like there's definitely a better way to say that, but there's so many ways that it's sort of rejuvenating and supportive from, the physical side to the nervous system side, to the oxygen energy production. Wow. That was really cool. I feel like I need to go get some acupuncture. I used to get acupuncture for my neck and it was really, really helpful. I have a terrible chronic neck issue and acupuncture was like the immediate thing that provided relief.

[00:19:07] Grace Jones: That's how a lot of people end up trying acupuncture for other things. Cause they'll have, you know, a neck problem or, you know, an ankle problem and acupuncture, but the only thing that helps and then go, “huh?” So, you're doing all this other stuff too. Tell me about that.

[00:19:22] Loren Sofia: That’s so cool. Well, it sounds like acupuncture can help, you know, way beyond fertility, but fertility in general, and you kind of answered this question too, but you know, I'm going to ask it and you can add anything additional if you'd like, but I think that, I've read at least some research. That's very supportive of acupuncture for things like spasmed tubes, PCOS, fibroids, endometriosis, even issues with ovarian reserve too, and sperm quality events. So, the male side of things. And I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind talking about how acupuncture can support this, these different areas.

[00:20:03] Grace Jones: Yeah, absolutely. And that's a huge spectrum of things too, as you're listening to my brain's going well for that once this, and so that one's that. So, a lot of those do stem initially back to that increased blood flow. So, things like ovarian reserve, for example, that AMH test, we know there's a lot of problems and a bit of conjecture around that particular test. The way I like to describe it with patients, you might have that test and come back and say, I have no eggs. I have a low ovarian reserve is that there's not much activity going on down there at the moment. But that's something that we can shift, and it is something that I've seen come up in blood tests. So, for that, it's a lot about that blood flow. Why is there not blood flowing down there? Why is the body not prioritizing that? It's not promoting that activity in the ovaries and the same thing with sperm as well. There's a lot to do with lifestyle when it comes to my fertility as well, which I know that you're on top of, but in terms of, you know, airflow as well as stress. You know, wireless signals are not great for the little sperm, all those sorts of things, Wi-Fi, there's a lot to do with lifestyle with male fertility, but same thing with blood flow. It's usually a stress thing from what I see, the body's just either not nourished well enough or the person's just really running more than they can afford to spend basically. And the body's saying “Well, we can't spend energy down there”, then that's those alive (?). And when it comes to things like endo and PCOS, because there's usually that inflammatory part of those issues, again, blood flow, but also, we use a lot of points that help to really encourage that immune response as well. And just trying to use things like castor oil packs for adhesions and pain and lots of things really, but it's yeah, same answers basically.

[00:22:01] Loren Sofia: When you described how acupuncture works, that it could be easily applied for these things too, what you said is so interesting too in terms of encouraging the blood flow, because, as I talk about a lot, when we're under stress, the body will prioritize only the most essential functions and that's going to be pumping the heart and it's going to force blood into the primary essential organs, not, the extremities of our body, not the reproductive organs. Because in terms of chronic stress, the body will consider those non-essential sorts of processes. And so that's so interesting how you described the encouragement of blood flow back into these organs and the connection between stress. It just makes so much sense to me. I just had to acknowledge that, and I love it. Lots of light bulbs going off as you're talking too. Very awesome. Well, if you wouldn't mind sharing, I'm really curious to talk about the herbal side of Chinese medicine. And if you wouldn't mind sharing any herbs that you're comfortable with, that could support fertility too. 

[00:23:22] Grace Jones: Definitely. Chinese herbal medicine is another aspect that is really fascinating. And there are actually some really big differences between Chinese herbal medicine and what we call Western herbal medicine, which most people just think of as herbal medicine. So, you know, we're all pretty familiar with the idea of herbs being sold in tinctures and different blends. And you'll add in a little bit of needle for this and a little bit of raspberry leaf for that and this kind of thing. But one of my mentors put this really beautifully that this type of herbal formula, the Western herbal formula, she said, it's kind of like a pop song. You throw some of this into this purpose. You throw some of that in for that purpose. And then you just chuck it all together and off it goes. Whereas she said the Chinese herbal formula, you put together more like a symphony. And so, what I mean by that is that we're not only choosing herbs for that individual effect, but also the interplay of those herbs with each other. So, we'll always look at how, you know, there's some herbs that we put in. We always put it together in the formula because they harmonize each other. Or ginger for example, is a super common one because it just helps with the digestion of any particularly, like rich, maybe herbal formula that someone is on. So, I actually came across a piece of research a couple of weeks ago, and I was like, this is great timing that actually showed that a lot of Chinese herbal formulations worked better when taken as a formula, as opposed to the equivalent doses of the individual ingredients taken at different times during the day. I hadn't actually seen research that had confirmed that before. So, there is a real difference there. And in the clinic, I never ever give herbs, that's not true, actually. I rarely give herbs alone. They’re always provided in a formula and that formula might be four herbs or it might be 14 herbs and different formulas will have different actions. For example, nourishing blood, or trying to find the kidneys. And in Chinese medicine, the kidneys are essentially the adrenals. We look at formulas from that aspect, as well as the individual herbs, but I have put together just a small list of herbs that are. Easy to find and are safe to take all throughout your fertility and pregnancy journey.

So, I thought I'd just go through those from a Chinese medicine point of view. And the first of those is ginger, because we love ginger in Chinese medicine. If anyone listening has had experience with a Chinese medicine doctor, you've probably figured out that we don't like cold. We like the body to be warm. We like there to be circulation and fresh ginger particularly is just the most beautiful, gentle, warming herb. Dry ginger is good, but it's more heating from a Chinese medicine point of view. So, it's not as appropriate for everyone. Like fresh ginger is, and from a Chinese medicine perspective, it's actually really beneficial for the lungs. So that's your immune system as well as being calming on the stomach. So, one is actually a very popular period pain formula is to boil up fresh ginger with brown sugar. That's a really traditional Chinese period pain formula. So, ginger is the first one. The second one is mint, and mint is a cooling herb. So, if you're someone who feels cold a lot of the time, probably not a good one for you, but it is a nice soothing herb as well for the digestion. Good for cramping, especially if someone's getting those hot flashes during the period because of the pain, mint can be a good one just to help cool and calm the body there and it's actually a really good herb for the liver. So, it would actually have been a perfect one for, for example, heat in the liver, like you were talking about with your Chinese medicine doctor, and it's nice and gentle. The next one is reishi mushroom, which is a bit of a popular one at the moment. So, I thought I'd throw that in. It is a traditional Chinese herb, its name is Lingzhi in Chinese.

And it's a gentle chi and blood tonic, and it's actually a herb for the heart, which is for the spirit essentially in Chinese medicine, which I think is interesting because in a lot of the natural medicine circles, they'll talk about taking reishi throughout pregnancy and having this reishi, baby, which is this calm, chill kind of baby, which I just think is really cool because it's like the herb is not only affecting us and our own spirit and coming ourselves, but the baby’s as well, and that's having full on effects. And so when they're born and into early life, that's beautiful. And I just have one more and that's the goji berries. So this is a Chinese herb as well, and they've kind of lost popularity now they were super popular a few years ago. I feel, and now people have forgotten about them again. So they're called Guo Qi Zi in Chinese and then the Chinese will vary. And basically they're a gentle yin and blood tonic, so perfect to steep in some tea in like your follicular phase of the cycle after menstruation, when you've kind of bled. Okay, well this has helped stop building it out and encourage a nice, healthy lining. And it's nice and neutral in terms of its temperature. It's not too cold, it's not too hot. It's just a nice neutral herb. So those are the four ones that I really like. They are really good to use alone and safe too, and they will taste good except for maybe the reishi. 

[00:29:03] Loren Sofia: That's amazing. Thank you so much when I asked you this question, I wasn't sure if I would recognize anything you were about to say. 

[00:29:11] Grace Jones: I made sure to use herbs that people could access. There's no point using apricot kernel, that people can't actually get. 

[00:29:20] Loren Sofia: Oh, that's amazing. I think most people are really familiar with every single herb that you mentioned and it's pretty accessible. 

[00:29:27] Grace Jones: It's meant to be accessible. You know, you meant to be able to apply the principles in your home daily. It's not something to only do for an hour in the clinic once a fortnight and then go home and forget about it. 

[00:29:41] Loren Sofia: That's awesome. Thank you so much. That was great. 

[00:29:45] Grace Jones: You’re very welcome. 

[00:29:46] Loren Sofia: To continue, I guess, down the line of traditional Chinese medicine and supporting fertility, what are some do's and don'ts would you say, and this could be anywhere from do's and don'ts of choosing a practitioner to do’s and don'ts of acupuncture or.

[00:30:08] Grace Jones: Well, one of my first don'ts is please do not self-prescribe herbs. The number of times we'll have patients coming in that were, oh, well, I saw that this was a really popular Chinese herb, but it's completely wrong for their constitution and it's just done damage to their digestion or something. So always, always, when it comes to, like, herbal forms. Please have a consult with someone, make sure it's appropriate for you. And also please don't ever try acupuncture on yourself if you're not qualified to. Some people ask if I will teach them and I'm like, no, I will not. Acupressure can be quite safe, especially if you have a video that you're following by someone who's qualified and can tell you what the points are for. So you can make sure they're appropriate. You want to make sure you're not, for example, stimulating points that you shouldn't use during pregnancy. If you, maybe, couldn't be pregnant or you are in early pregnancy, my main advice would be, make sure you see someone or consult with someone who's properly qualified in TCM and fertility, because it can get a bit complex sometimes as you know, when we have things like endometriosis and PCOS, and then there's a blocked tube, but then there's surgeries that need to happen. And then we've got recovery from surgeries and there's a lot of things going on. And that's only looking at the pelvis more than the rest of the body. And so it's important, particularly if you have got a lot going on to work with someone who can really do a deep dive and understand your individual circumstance and your body. And the other thing would be just don't expect a quick fix either. Like I said, right at the very beginning acupuncture and Chinese medicine, because they were built as a model of preventative care, they're not quick fixes. And for some people they are, for some people we'll do a couple of treatments and that fixes whatever's going on and that's amazing, but it's not, most of the time it normally takes time for the body to heal and to build that foundation on which it can properly really recover from whatever has been going on. And if anyone is giving you, a like, a set timeframe, it's saying, well, I'll have you fixed in a month. I would be extremely wary of that. 

[00:32:15] Loren Sofia: Those are great tips overall, but to speak to what you were just last saying, I agree the body takes time to heal and that's something I think any practitioner genuinely wanting to help people will be very honest about. Because, quick fixes typically, if they do work too, they're going to do more damage as well as not actually fixing the problem. It's just suppressing that more or something like that. So I love the realism and, you know, the addressing of the foundations and the overall support of the body in general, that really is traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture is all about those are the important things.

[00:32:58] Grace Jones: Yeah. Exactly. 

[00:33:01] Loren Sofia: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Grace. Those were all the questions I have for you. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. It was such a pleasure chatting with you. If our listeners want to learn more about traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture and support you, where can they go to find you?

[00:33:21] Grace Jones: I'm on Instagram mostly. So my Instagram is @drgracetcm. You could also find me at my clinic, Instagram, which is @bloomchinesemedicine. We're called based here in Australia. I spent years working on the Bloom Chinese Medicine Instagram, and I've really only just started up my own. So be gentle. That's mostly why you can find me online.

[00:33:48] Loren Sofia: That's perfect. So go check her out and I love to ask everyone at the end, if there's one piece of advice or tip that you could provide our listeners, that they can start today and take action on today. What would that be?

[00:34:03] Grace Jones: One really classic Chinese medicine tip when it comes to fertility is to keep your feet warm. There's a point right at the very bottom of the foot called kidney one. So it's the very beginning of the kidney channel, but the kidneys are the organ system that, in Chinese medicine terms, they're in charge of your adrenals, but also your entire reproductive system. So one of the old Chinese wivestales was that, you know, if you're wanting to conceive or you're pregnant, you should always be in socks. Like don't let your feet get cold. Cause if you let that point get cold, that can travel up into the pelvis and cool down that whole area. So that's a classic one. And my other one would just be watch out for stress in your life because that's just what I see most common in the clinic. That cold in the feet and the hands. Yes. It can come from walking around on tiled floors barefoot, but there's also usually a reason as to why the body can't warm it back up by itself. And that usually stems back to stress. So, watch out for even things that you don't think might be related to stress, they probably are. So just do a bit of a life reassess and go, how can I bring more relaxation? And self-care into my life. 

[00:35:19] Loren Sofia: Oh, that's such good advice. Thank you so much, Grace. This was awesome. And looking forward to just learning more from you and hopefully everyone just gets to learn more about traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture by listening to this episode, I think this was super valuable. So, thanks again. 

[00:35:36] Grace Jones: Thank you. It's been fun.

[00:35:37] Loren Sofia: All right, talk soon. Thank you. Bye bye.